Loose footed main

Les · Oct 8, 2012

I've sailed with a wide variety of sails, my last two boats had loose footed mainsails. I've also been a charter boat skipper with boats that have had loose footed mains. I like them. They seem to have more flexibility in sail adjustment. One of my favorite times sailing has been on a reach with the jib in a big curve (sheet block three quarters forward) and the main in a similar fashion with the outhaul off about a quarter and your boom vang cranked down to keep the top of the main working. IT was like having two jibs working.

I like loose footed mains. They give good shape.

Don Guillette · Oct 8, 2012

Geoff K: Here's my 2 cents along with reasons to support my view and the sail trim forum has had this discussion a few times in the past.

The real test to me is how the bolt rope/loose footed mainsails perform in head to head match race conditions. I've raced Catalina 30 loose footed against Catalina 30 bolt rope and vice versa. Neither had an advantage. I watched the same setup race in the Congressional Cups races in Long Beach, Ca. Neither set up had an advantage. America Cup boats are bolt rope but I don't know what that has to do with anything.

For the casual cruiser the choice is whatever turns you on. Yes, the loose footed main, in my opinion, requires more attention to adjustment detail and you better have a set of telltales and most importantly you better know how to read your telltales. With the loose footed main you have to be careful because it's very easy to induce too much draft depth (belly). Generally, above 25% of draft depth, you're becoming counter productive. Sometimes too much of something is good but with draft depth too much DD is bad.

I don't know anything about vortex. I'm just a common seaman. That's for guys like RichH and Joe from San Diego to explain. I'll bet Stu J, who is a common seaman like me, can't explain vortex either. Stu and I think that vortex is something you add to a Manhatten cocktail!!!

Stu Jackson · Oct 8, 2012

That's right, Don, along with the cherry!

The thing that is required, demanded, necessary, essential and all that for a loose footed main is an operating outhaul.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, all boats need them, but for loose foot it is absolutely needed.

Don Guillette · Oct 8, 2012

See, I told you. Stu on the right page -- it's a cherry or I prefer an olive. Neither of us now crap about vortex.

I don't know about other boats but on older Catalina's (80"s and 90's) the internal outhaul stinks. It was a great idea but a poor design. It's right up there with the pin type fairlead adjusters. I can't tell you how many Catalina boats I've been on where the fairleads are rusted in place and the outhaul doesn't work. The fairleads are the MOST important jib sail trim control. The outhaul is the MOST important draft depth mainsail trim control.

If both don't work they are like the broken clock -- they are right for some point of sail and wind condition and WRONG for all other points of sail and wind conditions. You'll never get 110% efficiency unless both work.

Joe · Oct 8, 2012

First things first.....

Manhatten........ American or Canadien whiskey, italian style sweet vermouth (red label) garnish with marischino cherry (red)

Dry Manhatten..... American or Canadien whiskey, french style dry vermouth (green label), garnish with stuffed spanish olive.

Perfect Manhatten.... same whiskeys, equal parts dry and sweet vermouth, garnished with a lemon twist.

Rob Roy..... same as above only made with Scotch whisky.... same variations and garni.

Note....... it is perfectly proper to garnish the drink with what ever the customer desires...

Oh yeah...loose foot mains. I like 'em... read this:
http://www.fxsails.com/article_loosefoot.php

RichH · Oct 8, 2012

I prefer a shelf foot for my sport boat. Reason: the shelf acts as a slight perpendicular winglet which lessens (but not fully) the short circuit of high pressure to low pressure that 'leaks' under the boom. Its harder to adjust the draft in the lower section of the main because of the friction (foot boltrope goes into the boom groove). The shelf foot is an approximation of the famous 'park avenue boom' used on J boats of Americas Cup fame. When I was campaigning this type of boat, I had several mainsails for different windstrength ...and the shelf portion was much smaller for the higher wind venues, smaller for light wind venues and larger for 'moderate'.

On my 'crab crusher' - cruiser, I prefer a loose foot but with large convex foot that 'hangs' well below the bottom of the boom ... more adjustability from a single mainsail.
If you only have one mainsail, the best possible choice is probably a loose foot.

Aerodynamically, the shelf foot is a wee bit faster but is limited in the adjustability of the foot/outhaul. So its not all that 'better' in variable strength winds where the loose foot is better in foot tension adjustment.
A loose foot is (or should be) cheaper as there is less expensive 'hand work' to make one.
If youre just a performance cruiser, go with the loosefoot .... and then get a proper teflon 'fritted' clue slug for more precise and frictionless outhaul adjustment. Example:http://www.sailrite.com/Slug-Coated-Outhaul-15-32

shemandr · Oct 9, 2012

I went to a sail trim seminar given by a nationally known loft. The speaker, who I will not name because I don't have permission and I can't be sure I'll quote him accuately enough, spoke about "Vertical Sail Trim". This is the shape of the sail as one looks at it from top to bottom. I put down my complimentary beverage and tuned in when the speaker gave this analogy. He asked us to think of the shape of a cylinder vs. the shape of a section of the surface of a basketball. The basketball section has two planes of curvature - horizontal and vertical- and the cylinder has one. Horizonal. It was his contention that the basketball skin shape creates a great deal more drag than the cylinder. If the sail is trimmed flat on the foot and there is curvature at the top, you have a basketball. If the curvatures match, its a cylinder. He said he trims both jib and main with a little less sheet tension and a bit more loose outhaul (Or jib lead forward).
I think his opinion has merit from my experience trimming on several different boats. On my Mark 25 I often sailed with a deeper foot - just because it was faster. Subconsciously I liked that cylinder shape. The greater speed allowed me to point too. I saw the opposite in a recent race on a J32. The owner had a laminate jib built by a top loft. But it was a basketball. The boat didn't go in light air.
So this is a long way to say "I like the loose footed main". I don't think of it as a disadvantage to sail trim at all.
I've posted this to stimulate discussion and I hope others will weigh in on the principle without getting mired in details.

kloudie1 · Oct 9, 2012

Think "WING SAIL" the closer you can make your sail look to these super efficient drivers, the better.. whether that be loose feet or tight feet..

Don Guillette · Oct 9, 2012

Geoff: You're not alone - I'll bet 50% (I'm being kind!!) of the sailors worldwide not only don't use the outhaul but they don't use the jib fairleads either. They only use two control -- the mainsheet and jib sheet -- that's it. I could use a bunch of analogies but you get the point. The broken clock I referred to explains it best.

During sail trim conversations with sailors I quickly turn the conversation to their use, or lack there of, of their sail trim controls. That's the crux of the matter. I don't like to embarress anyone and I don't because I was in their shoes years ago and I remember what it was like to not know the function of all the sail trim controls for the main and jib. No matter what excuse they give me for not using a sail trim control (telling me it's broken is silly -- fix it) it all boils down to the fact they don't know what each sail trim control for the main and jib is actually adjusting.

Here's the sad part to me -- all EVERY sail trim control for the main and jib are adjusting is 4 things. It's so basic I've reduced to ONE PAGE, which I call a "quick reference" and I provide it FREE when you purchase my book and chart. The "quick reference" is like the outhaul -- it's an accelerator and it powers up your sail trim knowledge. I don't mean to say guys like RichH, Joe from San Deigo, StuJ, Scott and Alan (my favorite Hunter sailor) plus a few others are going to be calling you for sail trim advice but you'll sure know a ton more than your dock neighbors and most importantly, you'll know immediately whether they are feeding you a sail trim line of crap.

The "quick reference" not only tells you WHAT you're adjusting when you push or pull a sail trim control for the main and jib but it tells you which way to push or pull the control to get the effect you desire.

Rick D · Oct 9, 2012

shemandr said:
I went to a sail trim seminar given by a nationally known loft. The speaker, who I will not name because I don't have permission and I can't be sure I'll quote him accuately enough, spoke about "Vertical Sail Trim". This is the shape of the sail as one looks at it from top to bottom. I put down my complimentary beverage and tuned in when the speaker gave this analogy. He asked us to think of the shape of a cylinder vs. the shape of a section of the surface of a basketball. The basketball section has two planes of curvature - horizontal and vertical- and the cylinder has one. Horizonal. It was his contention that the basketball skin shape creates a great deal more drag than the cylinder. If the sail is trimmed flat on the foot and there is curvature at the top, you have a basketball. If the curvatures match, its a cylinder. He said he trims both jib and main with a little less sheet tension and a bit more loose outhaul (Or jib lead forward).
I think his opinion has merit from my experience trimming on several different boats. On my Mark 25 I often sailed with a deeper foot - just because it was faster. Subconsciously I liked that cylinder shape. The greater speed allowed me to point too. I saw the opposite in a recent race on a J32. The owner had a laminate jib built by a top loft. But it was a basketball. The boat didn't go in light air.
So this is a long way to say "I like the loose footed main". I don't think of it as a disadvantage to sail trim at all.
I've posted this to stimulate discussion and I hope others will weigh in on the principle without getting mired in details.

To each his own. BTW, Don has a great section on twist in his book. I send it to new crew to review.
I remember also a seminar when I was a new sailor wherein I was told to trim the main so that the top batten was even with the bottom. That's how i trimmed for a while but then I read another book suggesting I instead trim to the leech telltales. So, I did that and it had me inducing twist. That did not seem optimum either. Then I read that the top telltale should be stalling occasionally (flicking). Well, that's pretty much how I sail now in normal wind conditions. That has me with just a bit more twist than some of the rest of the fleet, but I do OK. I do find that in low or high velocities, you can't trust the telltales 100%. Rather, you have to play with the shape a bit to see what gives you the best average boat speed. At least that's My Humble Opinion.

Loose footed main

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