License to sail

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Tony Gore

Educate, not legislate

I have been sailing for nearly 40 years - learned at school, but no formal qualifications. I am now actually doing my formal qualifications. Many of the people posting on this topic have hit a key point - rather that trying to legislate, get the insurance companies to differentially price against approved qualifications. (Don't underestimate the power of the insurance companies - some years ago, car makers were persuaded to bring in fenders that would withstand a 5mph impact without damage. However, this added to the costs, so they later wanted to change this to 2.5mph. They gave up on the idea when the insurance companies told them what they would do with the premiums). On one side of the debate, we have those who believe in freedom - that people should be able to get on the water without restriction. However, almost any water craft - a sailboat, a PWC, a power boat - is a lethal weapon and is never completely under control. A car is on ground that is fixed - a boat is on ground that moves (currents and tides) and is affected by the wind in addition. This is not a problem in open waters, with no other vessels around, but is a serious problem in restricted and crowded waters. And it is here that the problem lies - responsibility to other users. Most people are responsible. It is how we deal with the irresponsible ones who threaten the lives of the rest. Evidence comparing the UK to other European countries - the UK does not have compulsory qualifications; other countries do - suggests that compulsory qualifications does not necessarily lead to better safety. What does happen is that we have a strong culture of encouraging people to voluntarily get qualifications. In my club, we note that anyone who may be a little unsure of what they are doing gets some gentle help and advice. I have just sold my old boat to someone new to sailing, and I will take him out to teach him some of the basics. With the jet skiers who continually cut up close to the sailing boats without any thought, I console myself that the RYA has done research that shows that the average jetskier only does it for 6 months before they get bored and give up. I have been trying to get my club to open up and encourage these guys to join. Then we can take them out on a sailing boat, and show them the effect it has on us. And when they get bored, offer them a way into sailing, and bring their families. Meanwhile, I rescue one or two power boats each summer that have swamped their engines, run out of fuel etc. all in strong tidal waters. I quietly point out that they should carry a paddle and a small anchor might also be a useful idea. I try to break down any idea that there is an "us" and "them". Some of the beaches in the UK demand to see the insurance of people launching from the beach. This encourages me to think that an insurance led approach to encourage training and qualifications is a good one. I don't want strict legal requirements - otherwise how can I put someone at the helm for the first time in a quiet spot and get them enthused with the sport. A couple of years ago, my father in law (still sailing at 83) and I took out a disabled lady - probably in her mid 50s. When we were in clear water, gentle winds and sorted out, we gave her the helm and showed her how to sail. She was so thrilled - she explained that because of her disabilities, she had never been able to drive and this was the first time in her life that she had been in charge of a "vehicle". I don't want legislation that would remove these opportunities. So, sometimes we may have to offer to help and educate, rather than berate, those who do not seem to quite know what they are doing. "Did that sudden current catch you unawares?" may be better than "you stupid t***** for cutting me up like that" and offers the opportunity for a "sorry" and to engage in a conversation and make polite suggestions on how to avoid it in future.
 
Dec 3, 2003
2,101
Hunter Legend 37 Portsmouth, RI
Since I am out there...

...and I am trained, then I know that the untrained idiots out there are just an accident waiting to happen. Basic training MUST be mandatory! And a certificate carried at all times. Licensing not required. When an operator comes to me on the water and asks me where they are, then I am fit to be tied!
 
Jun 3, 2004
9
- - West Access Marina; Carlyle, Il
Regulation

Regulation: United States Coast Guard Auxiliary should give a boating skill and seamanship course ... This certificate would reduce your insurance preimum by about a third ... You would need this along with the other required papers by your state to recieve your boating tags ...
 
Jun 7, 2004
944
Birch Bay Washington
Uh, Ellis they already do this

I already get a reduction on insurance. More like 10% though. This course is not required for state registration and I do not support that. Check the link.
 
P

Pete M.

It's bizarre...

...to think that anyone can just walk into a dealership, plunk down some money, and drive and/or sail off with any size boat they can afford. Licensing issues notwithstanding, this person has no requirement to demonstrate to anyone that he or she has the ability to safely operate a boat of any size. And people do this. And we let them. This is nuts.
 
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William (Liberty Belle)

Yes on the safety course

A boaters safety course is a very helpful tool. I do think the issue of licensing boaters is just another way for the Goverment to collect money. I believe that most of the problems I see come more from a lack of common courtesy. A license wont fix that but maybe some education will
 
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Fred

Large Boats/Small Boats

If safety requirements/licensing is only required for some boats, it should be for the smaller ones, not as implied by the question, for the larger ones. I have seen a large boat operated recklessly once vs. hundreds of times for small boats. The smaller ones are not seen as readily and can be harder to avoid.
 
Jun 8, 2004
2,952
Catalina 320 Dana Point
Saturday, I took some people out and had them

at the wheel till we got into traffic approaching the harbor mouth when I could see the helmsman getting nervous. I took the wheel and started explaining how "Rules of the Road" applied to various boats. They thought it must be very complex and I replied no, easy enough to learn if you try. Problem is you can't tell who knows and seems like most don't, boats I recognize I know what to expect of them. So it struck me that we need a private signal, like a flag on port spreader that says the skipper knows and follows the rules. No signal and you just figure you'll have to be the "give way" boat. I don't have much confidence that licensing would really solve the problem.
 
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Larry

Wait!

Not only a license to sail a boat; how about a tax based on the vessels' sail area, for use of the wind! The clowns in the legislatures are getting desperate. I'm sure there is at least one politician thinking along those lines as I write this. Hate being cynical, but I was advised that a 4 day course, costing $250.00 and given by NYSDEC, is required to remove and apply bottom paint. I'm no longer permitted to do what I did for 39 years!
 
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steve

The drivers on the road are licensed, and many of them are total idiots in their driving habits. Will it be any different to license boaters? We will still have the idiots on the waterways.
 
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Ron

Licensing - humbug

Licensing will not make a poor skipper any better while actually operating his/her boat. Licensing usually means only one thing - bueracracy, staffed by incompetent people whose main function is to assure that form 27J is filed in triplicate with the required $200 application fee. BTW USCG Licensing for Captains is available for any and all who WISH to get licensed. Note however, that this license carries with it a great responsibility --- a greater liability for bad outcomes on the water that the captain was "qualified" to deal with. I see people running red lights every day in Florida. Licensing has not made them better drivers, more considerate drivers or more concientious drivers. Their operative word is "ME".. Don't get sucked in by the "safety oriented" faction. People who will be safe on the water are born ... not made. Regards Ron Breen s/v Dances With Wind
 
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David K

Albatross's nose under your bimini flap

Like Steve from Virginia Beach said, automotive drivers are licensed and that hasn't stopped idiots from driving! Give the regulators the slightest reason to write new laws or regulations to protect us from ourselves and once they taste the money the size of the budget to maintain and expand these obviously "necessary" programs will grow and grow and so will the fees associated with the testing and licensing. I'm certainly against licensing, but all in favor of mandatory liability insurance
 
Jun 4, 2004
133
- - Plymouth
Re: Licensed to sail

I believe speed is the issue here. Sailboats are really in a different time dimension on the water. Have you ever been in a car when someone crosses the road and you have to wait for them, it seems like they take an eternity to cross. In a vehicle, you are in a different dimension of time. Power boaters can travel at such quicker rates of speed even in the inner harbors. The ability of a sailboat to react to a mistaken course of a speedboat is limited. Sailboats are almost a target in the water for speedboaters as they must seem to just sit there in the water. Then of course there is the occassional "hotdogger" speed/powerboater that wants to be in your face with speed, those types are just your average American muscle powering A-Holes!!
 
Jun 4, 2004
629
Sailboat - 48N x 89W
Alzheimer’s

Canadian regulations require an operator's card (PCOC) to operate a boat, which will be phased in to include all boaters by 2009. The new rules state that any person born after April 1, 1983, and/or anyone operating a craft under 4 m in length (including personal watercraft) must have a Boat Operator's License now to drive a motorized boat within Canada. By the year 2009 it will be mandatory for everyone - and after about 45 years of safe boat operation (power & sail) - I will no longer be qualified to operate a boat in Canadian waters. This may seem unfair and/or unnecessary to some - but in my case will protect everyone else from my impending Alzheimer’s. See the CANADA SHIPPING ACT Competency of Operators of Pleasure Craft Regulations - SOR/99-53 http://www.tc.gc.ca/marine/menu.htm http://www.canlii.org/ca/regu/sor99-53/sec1.html FWIW, Gord May
 
Feb 18, 2004
184
Catalina 36mkII Kincardine - Lake Huron
Gord, even with Alzheimers, you will be qualified if....

Gord The Canadian requirements apply "to non residents operating their pleasure craft in Canadian waters after 45 consecutive days. Operator card or equivalent issued to a non-resident by their state or country will be considered as proof of competency"
 
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Pete M.

Licenses...

Well, if as some say, there are lots of bad auto drivers out there who have licenses, so why require boat operators to be licensed because if they are bad, they will be bad with a license.... This kind of logic results in the conclusion that people don't need to be licensed to drive cars, either. Or have insurance. Wouldn't that improve things? And, as one poster here mentioned, sail boats are in a different "time dimension," and since they go slow relative to powerboats, they are not a threat. Au contraire. Here on the Chesapeake Bay I've had more close calls with sailboats than with powerboats. There seems to be a presumption that sailboaters know and obey the Rules of the Road. Some do, some don't. And if you think a slow moving sailboat, that displaces 10,000 lbs or more can't do damage or kill you, you are ready to be permanently landlocked and never permitted to operate another boat of any kind....
 
May 20, 2004
4
Hunter 426DS Chicago DuSable Harbor
Laws for all Human Activity

We're close to a single rule. Everything not strictly forbidden will be mandatory.
 

mortyd

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Dec 11, 2004
952
Catalina 30 easy living
license

anyone who thinks drivers are licensed needs to go to traffic court and see how many defendants are driving with licenses revoked and suspended many times, including currently, and notice how they just walk out of court again like nothing has happened. laws have never, and will never, stop the behavior of people willing to break them. pilots' licenses - the hardest of all to get and maintain - do nothing to stop idiots from killing themselves and inncoent passengers by getting into situations they could easily avoid.
 
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Mark Wieber

Boats are not cars

I am right there with 'Ron Breen'. WE are giving up one freedom after another' in this country, to the point where it is a run away train. We are taxed and regulated beyond belief and the worst thing is how our money is spent. If I believed the Goverment, could develop an effecient licensing program for boat opperators. And, if I believed that ALL the money boaters spent to get these licenses would go into promoting boating safety, and improving the boating life style. Then it would be a good thing. As it stands now?? Keep the damn burocrats out of my hobby. No licenses. No mandatory "safety" classes. We will regulate our damn selves.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,037
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Born or Learned?

I agree with many about licensing being useless and unnecessary. Ron noted: "People who will be safe on the water are born ... not made." I disagree. Indeed, that seems to be what this entire discussion is all about. I continue to recommend that people READ and LEARN. Sometimes I get whacked for being the guy who asks people to do RESEARCH and some HOMEWORK. That's what this is ALL ABOUT. You CAN read. You CAN take lessons. You CAN improve by doing research. ALL of these things are ALREADY AVAILABLE. No licensing agency is going to improve the material that is available right now for free or very little investment. Those who WANT to learn WILL. Those who don't, license or not, will still be out there doing damage. Keep the bureaucracy out of our lives. Enough already. Stu
 
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