Lee helm, a leak, damn power boater, advice on these.

Patrick S/V Shangra-La · May 21, 2012

When you are under sail

You have the right of way when meeting a power boat.....HOWEVER...having the right of way does no good if you are hit and sinking.

Remember these a**holes are many times drunk, we don't go fast enough to get out of our own way, let alone a drunk in a power boat. I personally work every week end so I can have the gulf to my self on the week days while the drunks are at work.

If they are fishing...though it isn't necessary, give them a little room it is better than a fight on the water with a drunk. Isn't it? I know this is not what you want to hear, and there are times when you have to enforce your right of way, especially in a channel with shallows on each side. But like with your spouse...Do you want to be right, or happy?

Bob J. · May 21, 2012

Patrick S/V Shangra-La said:
Remember these a**holes are many times drunk, we don't go fast enough to get out of our own way, let alone a drunk in a power boat. I personally work every week end so I can have the gulf to my self on the week days while the drunks are at work.

I don't want to start a war here but that's a pretty broad brush stroke......

Bad Obsession · May 21, 2012

Hrm.....Would be fun if we were allowed to shoot the bad ones with pepper balls (paint balls with pepper spray in them).

There isn't much you can do about the people. If you have a trailer you may want to try a different lake on weekends.

I use to do a lot of fishing on a lake in Virginia called Lake Anna. The power boat traffic was so bad I wouldn't fish on the weekend. Jet skis and water skis were a pain in the butt. I tended to find other places to go on weekends and fish that lake on week days.

zeehag · May 21, 2012

never insist on your right of way--if the idjit in the power boat looks like they want the road--give it to them and dont get hit. had to do that plenty of times--folks just dont get it.....never get hit by anything sturdier,bigger, faster, or drunker than you.

Daydreamer · May 21, 2012

I believe the term "right of way" is superseded by "any collision that can be avoided should be avoided". Also, boats actively fishing or pulling skiers fall under limited maneuverability rules.

Don't use silicon, as once applied nothing else will stick, to it or where it once was. Find out where the water comes in from the outside and use epoxy. Otherwise water will continue to intrude the hull/core and cause more damage.

Ralph Johnstone · May 21, 2012

Sorry Misfits .....................

.................... but I don't think the brush stroke is anywhere near broad enough to cover the majority of power boaters here on the west coast of British Columbia:

Over the last 15 years on the water I have seen it go from bad to worse with these super charged whack jobs:

- right of way is determined strictly by the size of your boat.
- being under sail does not affect your right of way (see above).
- NEVER bother to get a "Pleasure Craft Owners Card" because you're so nautically smart to begin with.
- the engine of your mega horsepower stinkpot won't start until you've had a drink or three.
- the worse the music, the louder you play it.
- run your generator all night just because you have one.
- run your smoking engine for at least an hour before untying from the dock.
- and always cut as close as possible with the biggest possible wake just to say "hi".

There, feel much better after that rant even though it doesn't make a bit of difference to those morons :cussing:.

Anyone care to add to the list ?

31seahorse · May 21, 2012

Yesterday presented the best wind and temp combination in this area in quite a few days. It's no wonder so many boats were out zooming about. I agree with the idea that yielding any possible ROW is much easier than hauling yourself and your crew out of the water or repairing damage. Stand On vessel and Give Way vessel are, I think, the preferred terms. When in doubt I prefer to Give Way if possible.

I also agree with your interest in being on the water to enjoy the experience. Avoiding collisions certainly keeps the day more enjoyable! When I saw your post including "damn power boater" I thought you were going to discuss motorboat wakes. They can be a real challenge to a small sailboat. Stopping progress in light air, rocking and rolling the boat and the crew, and causing docking and trailer loading hazards. One can never be sure of how far those wakes will travel.

RE: lee helm Mast rake (tilting aft) can help. Small changes and testing are in order if you do not have another boat like yours around to compare with.

Scott T-Bird · May 21, 2012

Territorial aggression ....

It's always amusing to me to read these posts when sailors start complaining about everybody else. Let me start out by saying that I used to be a competitive water skier and it always makes me laugh when I hear the sailors in these forums characterize everybody who uses a power boat as being "drunks". Judging by the body types that I see when comparing water skiers to sailors, I would guess that it is the other way around. And I've been around enough parties frequented by competitive sailors to assure you all that sailors drink far more heavily than water skiers. Hasn't everybody seen the official slogan of Annapolis? A Drinking Town with a Sailing Problem ...

Most perceptions are probably based on the fact that serious water skiers are rarely ever seen by sailors and sailors only see the occasional casual water skier (those that don't have the sense to water ski when conditions are favorable). No serious water skier or wakeboarder is in the middle of a large body of water during a crowded weekend with various power boats and sailboats milling around, especially when there is wind.

It's been my experience that water skiers generally have more conflicts with fishermen, because both groups favor conditions where there is little activity on a very calm body of water. Fishermen were notorious for cutting out the buoys of my slalom course under cover of the darkness because it lay in the heart of an area that they like to fish - in a secluded area of the lake near some bullrushes that dissipates the wake (perfect conditions for water skiing).

Joe, I would guess that you ran across some fishermen who were trolling, possibly near a shoreline, and they were annoyed that you didn't recognize what they were doing and they were wondering why you were drifting into them at such an agonizingly slow speed and not changing course. I mean, how else could you be on a collision course with a boat that is motoring? It always makes me laugh when I hear sailors complaining about being on a collision course with a speed boat. I get the sense that panic sets in for a sailor when a power boat gets within half a mile!

Bob J. · May 21, 2012

The conflicts between sailors & powerboaters are very much like the issues between the hikers vs. the atv's/dirt bike crowd. It's unfortunate that those that seek peace & quiet are sometimes robbed of that experience but that's no reason to attack & generalize other recreationists.

We all have stuff!!

RichH · May 21, 2012

joes new addiction said:
Notice yesterday that I've/she's got a sever case of lee helm. (actually had the till pushed over a bit to keep her on course).
There's not a lot of info out there on my boat, a'71- '22 Plas Trend PT 1/4. I was using the new main and jib, I took the dim. of the new sails from the ones that come with her, I beleive orginal ones.
I've looked up here and there on the net about it, one guy at the dock told me what to do if I got it.
I undertand all what is going on my lateral reistance and center of effort, the hows and whys, in a nut shell the wind is pushing my boat IN FRONT of the pivot point and pushing her to the lee, I gotta get the center moved back, but not sure of a fix on the boat.
I tried to do some science yesterday when I got back to the dock, find the piont of lateral resistance,(the center of my boat), but waves, wind kept me from really finding it. I kinda sorta found the center of the sails.
If I add a bit more tension to the back of the mast stay, (loosen the front) and get the mast to lean back I should get the effort more to the rear, hense weather helm?
I read like 1/2" back isn't unheard of?
Does this effect the side shrouds? Should I loosen them before I tighten the rear?
Second....
I removed the step into the cabin last winter and made it taller, (old guy with bad knees can't bend that well anymore!).
The old ones were screwed into a raised section of hull, but I glued the new step sides in placed.
I THOUGHT the section was dry, but now I think it's open to the drop down keel well of the ballast.
When I get a good wave aganst her, a bit of water will work it's way in the old screw holes (I think) and onto the floor, not much but it's wet.
I tried the easy way, LOTS of silcone at the step edge but it has to be dry for a while for the silcone to set and too much traffic out there for that.
Is there somehting out there I can use to seal the screw hole up in wet conditions?
It's not a leak, leak (think Titanic) more a leak when a good wave hit her, so the holes are above the water line by some.
Then I can silcone the step sides back in and seal it up.
Finally, traffic.
This lake is busy with power boat traffic, so busy was told not to sail on Sunday afternoons, holidays.
Yesterday, more than a few times I had to luff the sails, do some B.S moves to keep from scratching paints, (no close calls, but one where I knew if I stayed on course and speed, we meet deal).
At one point 2 guys in a power fishing boat, called me a ******* cuz I was close, (I was on starboard side, under sail, they motored in front of me and I'm a *******)?
How do you handle these people who I guess think they got a fast boat, we have to wait for them? Who has the right of way with boats pulling water skiers?
After the "******* calling", I have called it a sail, figured that when I'm on my boat, I'm in a "happy place" and not gonna get my blood PSI up over "anchor heads"!
Thanks
Joe
half the fun of sailing is the mechanics that comes with her! The sailing is the icing on the cake!!

First of all Lake Wallenpaupack is SUICIDAL for sailboats vs. fishing boats and water skiers. You obviously have the 'right of way' in most situations but the aggressiveness of your 'fellow boaters' is like people riding the New Your City subway system .... dont ever get in their way or youre going to get 'hurt'. Its an 'attitude thing' thats been going on since the Lake was built. PA fish commission officers dont seem to care about the cacophony that goes on on Wallenpaupack.

Your boat is a Bludworth design (PT, Mustang, Chrylser, etc.) which are notorious for 'WIERD' helm problems because of its underwater shape.
The boat HAS to be set-up precisely ....
..... Centerboard ALL THE WAY DOWN vs. lee helm, slightly raised (swing it. back for 'weather helm); .... if the front edge of the centerboard is 'very sharp' or blunt with 'square edges' consider (later and once you get 'balance by other methods') blunt it down to a 'rounded' leading edge shape with a file to reduce the potential of 'cavitation' and loss of CB 'grip'. (is the centerboard 'loudly humming' when at high speed when going upwind ??????)
..... VERY ***Tight*** backstay and with mast raked AFT, if lee helm; forward rake for 'weather helm'.
..... REEF when helm balance gets out of control !!!!!!!!!!!

When sailing in moderate winds set up Mainsail LUFF TENSION in accordance to 'weather or lee helm' via Mainsail HALYARD tension: see http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=120970 - especially see the commentary on setting 'helm pressure' by adjusting the main halyard tension.
(Note: do not severely overtighten the shrouds on this boat as the shroud and stay attachment points to the hull are 'weak' and need to be constantly 'inspected' for failure.)

...... PLUS if your (hanked on) jib has a 'cunningham line' pull this line TIGHT ... to get the point of max. draft in the jib 'more forward'.
.... but dont fully tension the jib sheet when you experience lee helm, if you have a smaller jib use it (the boat is too narrow to carry a large LP jib ... if the angle that the jib tack (stem fitting) to the jibs fairlead car (on the 'rail' or edge of the flush-ceck) is LESS THAN 12 degrees from the boats centerline ... you WILL have lee helm. A too large jib on this boat will/may 'choke the slot' (distance between the jib leech and the mainsail) and will cause 'helm problems'; overtensioning the jib sheet may cause the clew to be inside of the all important 10-12° jib tack—clew line.

Forget CLR vs. CE ... that only sets up a boat for static or hove-to conditions and will not include the DYNAMIC forces of the sails.
Your Rx will be arrived at by proper Backstay/forestay tension (~15+% backstay tension), proper mainsail SHAPE (halyard tension, etc.) and having that centerboard ALL THE WAY DOWN when beating or upwind .... and probably a bit more of 'mast rake' aft (but dont overdo the rake as the rudder is very small).

Get some Tell tales on the sails so you can SEE the aerodynamic affects. START with http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51999/Sail Trim Chart and Sail Trim Guide so that you dont 'cross control your sails'; cross-controlled sails will also result in WIERD helm balance problems.

hope this helps.

RichH · May 21, 2012

joes new addiction said:
Tanks!
That is a lot (for me) to digest, but I will see if it all helps.
Do you think if I made up a larger rudder it may help? As this is my 2nd boat (and 3rd sail boat I've ever been on), it seems to turn on a dime and leave 8 cents change!
It came with a 150 jib, but I'm using the size of the one that came on it.
The 12 defrees is intresting, I'll see what angle I'm at there.

NO dont change the rudder profile. A sure way to get to the sail balance and correct SHAPE is to sail the boat without using the rudder to get the balance needed (use the rudder only for 'major' corrections until you get the 'balance' correct, then 'back off' a wee bit so that you have 'just a little bit of weather helm'. You want this boat to ultimately with very little 'weather helm' ... sail trim and sail SHAPE will get you there 'quicker' only rake the mast if you need 'major' corrections, etc. Only as a very last/dire resort should you consider to change any underwater shape.

Don12364 · May 21, 2012

To Answer Your Questions - and a Tip

Mast Rake
Your masthead can be 6" raked back. Hang a weight on the main halyard and estimate how far it hangs back at the goose neck. This may correct your lee helm.
If your shrouds attach to the deck abaft of the mast heel then they will slacken a little when you ease off the forestay and tighten the backstay. If so take up on the shrouds too.
You mention a lifting keel. Was the lee helm you had with the keel down or up?
Normally one has the keel fully down and beating to windward when there should be no lee helm. Keel up almost certainly will give lee helm.

Holes
One way to seal them temporarily is to fit bolts and use some sealant.
Another way is to clean and dry everything, then mix some gel coat and apply it to the holes from the outside of the hull and then cover it with Sellotape until set. That should keep the water out and also help to get a nice smooth finish.

Powerboaters
These are a sub set of humainty as are sport fishermen.
No doubt they did detect some uncertainty in your course but just keep clear until you are thoroughly familiar with the COLREGS and can act instinctively.
No future in standing on and heading straight to the scene of the accident.

Of course there are plenty of situations where you are REQUIRED to hold course and speed to allow others to avoid you - but these situations only occur when both vessels are coming close together i.e. closer than , say, 100 yards.
If you are uncertain what to do just avoid close quarters situations.

Lastly
If a novice (no shame in that!) befriend other sailors and/or join a sailing club
Again enquire around for one with members who have boats like yours.

kloudie1 · May 21, 2012

Lots of "Donkeys" and jackasses in the sailing business too.. Read the first letter to the editor in the latest Sail Magazine..
I read that he doesn't want anyone who is not sailing a multi-million dollar boat to be allowed out on the water.. Nice.

John · May 21, 2012

Purely theoretical question:
The original poster mentioned water skiers. Who is the stand on boat between a motor boat towing a skier and a sail boat? My impression is that it's the boat towing the skier, no?
(Question is purely theoretical since we don't get a whole lot of water skiers in the SF Bay.)

Bob J. · May 22, 2012

kloudie1 said:
Read the first letter to the editor in the latest Sail Magazine..

That letter was disgusting? I can't believe the mag actually printed that, had me looking for the puke bucket.

Indysailor · May 22, 2012

John said:
Purely theoretical question:
The original poster mentioned water skiers. Who is the stand on boat between a motor boat towing a skier and a sail boat? My impression is that it's the boat towing the skier, no?
(Question is purely theoretical since we don't get a whole lot of water skiers in the SF Bay.)

Good question- I am not sure what the answer is, but I stay clear of them and anyone towing a tube, wakeboard, etc. In other words, we treat them as the stand on vessel.

As for power boaters, they are a fact of life on our mid western lake. Doesn't bother me much unless the wind dies; my wife and I talk constantly about the traffic around us, making sure to keep our distance and adjust accordingly to stay well away from others. Being alert and adjusting early are keys for me, but I'm not trying to really get from one place to another very often and it's fun for me to maneuver around and take on the task of staying safe. It's all part of a day on a busy lake. If we were racing, we might feel differently.

Scott T-Bird · May 23, 2012

Some of these responses about stand-on and so forth with regards to ski boats and water skiers are just silly. Of course a sail boat under sail is stand-on relative to a ski boat with a skier. But in nearly 50 years of boating, I have never, ever seen a ski boat that couldn't and wouldn't avoid a sail boat (even a faster moving Hobie Cat). Again, I think that it is a matter of the perspective of the typical reaction of a sailor that any boat (other than a brother sailboat - except those who also have no regard for protocol) within half a mile triggers a reflex of defensive evasion and dire concerns.

I am teasing everybody to some extent, and I also would agree that larger power boats on auto-pilot without adequate attentiveness is a major safety concern, but Lake Wallenpaupack is very similar to Lake Hopatcong with regard to boat traffic (it's impossible to boat on these lakes with auto-pilot) and the absolute randomness of directions that people are headed at all times during the weekends. I can tell you that water skiers have specific rules regarding the protocol of avoiding other vessels and water skiing rules are probably the most aggressively enforced activety on these lakes during a busy summer day by law enforcement on the water. I can tell everybody from experience that on Lake Hopatcong, ski boats and other smaller power boats (especially those pulling skiers, wake boarders, tubers or whatever) are far more likely to be pulled over and ticketed by the State Police for even the most trivial of offenses than any other demographic on the lake. Even the 30' twin 500 hp go-fast boats are far less likely to be harrassed by the police (most people agree that the owners of these boats are generally cops and the kind of people that make big contributions to cops for favorable treatment). But there also is just a tiny fraction of the possibility that these boats would maintain a collision course with a sailboat.

But it is also silly to think that a sailboat at 5 MPH can even take evasive action to avoid ski boats at 25 - 35 mph. It simply makes no sense, except to the sailor who believes that every power boat on the water is operated by a drunk who never pays any attention.