Leak in Bilge... Mystery?

[eddwill]

I have been a member for quite some time but this is my first post.
I have a 1977 O'day 25 CB, with a mysterious Bilge leak. I will remove about 2 or 3 gallons every few hours through the bilge pumps. I have ruled out any thru-hulls or plumbing. After owning the boat for about three years and putting up with this annoying water in the Bilge problem I set out yesterday to track down the source. I removed the bilge cover and the round pendant line cover. Within 10 - 15 minutes of launching the boat I observed small amounts water appearing in a few places in the Bilge. After wiping dry a couple times I am sure that the water was seeping up through the fiberglass. Now that I know this much, the big question is where and how it is getting through the bottom of the hull into the Bilge???
The boat has a very thick bottom paint system consisting of a red bottom paint over a gray thicker coating. No cracks or structural damage. The only place I could suspect is the screws and plates holding the Center Board wedges but that's a long ways for water to travel through fiberglass and Lead. Any Ideas would be appreciated ?
Thanks, Ed (Proud owner of "Margaritaville")

 

[Joe11688]

I have been a member for quite some time but this is my first post.
I have a 1977 O'day 25 CB, with a mysterious Bilge leak. I will remove about 2 or 3 gallons every few hours through the bilge pumps. I have ruled out any thru-hulls or plumbing. After owning the boat for about three years and putting up with this annoying water in the Bilge problem I set out yesterday to track down the source. I removed the bilge cover and the round pendant line cover. Within 10 - 15 minutes of launching the boat I observed small amounts water appearing in a few places in the Bilge. After wiping dry a couple times I am sure that the water was seeping up through the fiberglass. Now that I know this much, the big question is where and how it is getting through the bottom of the hull into the Bilge???
The boat has a very thick bottom paint system consisting of a red bottom paint over a gray thicker coating. No cracks or structural damage. The only place I could suspect is the screws and plates holding the Center Board wedges but that's a long ways for water to travel through fiberglass and Lead. Any Ideas would be appreciated ?
Thanks, Ed (Proud owner of "Margaritaville")

Ed,
Have you ever removed the centerboard in your boat since you've owned it? It may be a good idea to do that at the end of the season if you can. That way, you could look up into the slot and have someone pour a gallon of water into the bilge to see exactly where it comes out. The only things that come to mind are the lower gudgeon and the self bailing cockpit hose. Does you pendant line lead into the cockpit? I really don't think it would be the CB plates. It could be coming in from the keel slot. There's another small pocket in the top of the keel slot where the sheave is located for the pendant line, and the sheave strap is bolted through from the sole of the bilge, that is, if you have a pendant line that leads into the cockpit. I removed the CB on my OD 222 a few years ago right in my yard. I used boat stands and wood blocks to support the hull so that I could get at it. When I removed the CB, I gave it, and the keel slot two coats of Super Ship Bottom ablative paint. I had two plate bolts that were pretty stubborn and had to use an impact driver. If I had it to do over, I'd have used an impact cordless drill with the built in clutch. They work so much better than an impact driver for stuck screws and bolts. Well these are my thoughts Ed. I'd probably be scratching my head too. I hope that you're able to find it and fix the problem. Luck be with you.
Joe

 

[eddwill]

Joe, I have ruled out the lower gudgeon, cockpit bailing and all other ports of possible entry. My CB pendant does leads to the cockpit. The area inside the bilge where the pendant tube is has been reinforced with fiberglass and the tube is wrapped all the way up in glass.
I have only inspected the CB trunk when the boat was in the water by diving with snorkel gear in the clear frigid water of Lake Tahoe. everything looked fine. My trailer design prevents me from seeing any part of the CB area, its sitting on a flat bunk.
I do have experience with the CB and keel on another boat, My brother also has a O'day 25, last year I assisted him with removing his Center board and replacing his pendant and pivot pin. When we removed the plate screws about a quart of water came out of the screw holes. his boat is on a E-Z Loader trailer so access is a little easier. This is the reason I am suspecting the plate screws. I still have not ruled out the pendent entry in the Center board trunk. Thank for your ideas, Ed

 

[Joe11688]

It's true that getting the boat off a roller trailer is a lot easier than getting it off a flat bunk trailer, but not impossible. I no longer have the Load-Rite roller trailer that came with mine. Today, I have a Long Mfg tandem flat bunk trailer. It takes a little longer to get the boat off it, but I'm still able to do it with the right equipment.

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Joe, I have ruled out the lower gudgeon, cockpit bailing and all other ports of possible entry. My CB pendant does leads to the cockpit. The area inside the bilge where the pendant tube is has been reinforced with fiberglass and the tube is wrapped all the way up in glass.
I have only inspected the CB trunk when the boat was in the water by diving with snorkel gear in the clear frigid water of Lake Tahoe. everything looked fine. My trailer design prevents me from seeing any part of the CB area, its sitting on a flat bunk.
I do have experience with the CB and keel on another boat, My brother also has a O'day 25, last year I assisted him with removing his Center board and replacing his pendant and pivot pin. When we removed the plate screws about a quart of water came out of the screw holes. his boat is on a E-Z Loader trailer so access is a little easier. This is the reason I am suspecting the plate screws. I still have not ruled out the pendent entry in the Center board trunk. Thank for your ideas, Ed

Ed-

Others are following your thread. You answered some questions with your second post.

One question that has not been answered is are there thru hulls on your boat?

One place comes quickly to mind is the sink drain. Do you have a thru hull to the sink drain? Is the cock open? Is there a crack in the tubing? Any other thru hulls? Any other tubing with cracks? Like from forward sink to main drain thru hull?

Do you have a thru hull speed gauge/paddle wheel? Have you inspected that thru hull?

Water in the area of the pivot for the centerboard is usually stopped from coming all the way up by fiberglass walls/barriers so I would still look elsewhere. Although a hard bump or hit could conceivably crack one.

There will likely be others contributing to this thread. Have you searched the archives? Keep in mind that the O'Day 25 was built the same way as the 23, 26 and others. So threads discussing your problem may be answered under other O'Day boats.

Ed K
26

 

[eddwill]

Ed, There is only one thru hull below the water line, the sink/ice box drain. I have inspected it well, there are no line leaks. I have watched the water seep up through the bilge fiberglass. perhaps there could be areas in the glass that did not get saturated with resin. I have snorkeled under the boat and cleaned the center board trunk with rag while underwater, the whole bottom of the boat and keel area appears very sound and clean. , Ed

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Ed, There is only one thru hull below the water line, the sink/ice box drain. I have inspected it well, there are no line leaks. I have watched the water seep up through the bilge fiberglass. perhaps there could be areas in the glass that did not get saturated with resin. I have snorkeled under the boat and cleaned the center board trunk with rag while underwater, the whole bottom of the boat and keel area appears very sound and clean. , Ed

Ed,

One more reply about leaks in fiberglass boats. Where the water comes in is not necessarily opposite or adjacent where it gets inside.

Fiberglass boats are made of layers. Water and moisture can move from where it gets under first layer to where we find it.

You are finding it in the bilge, the designed lowest level on the boat above the keel. The bilge is below the waterline. Water can rise to the bilge as you imply about water entering the bilge from somewhere in the keel.

So at this point you can say that water may be entering from either any point of the hull above the keel, the keel joint, or somewhere on the keel as you suggest.

I never saw how a keel was made on the O'Day 25. However I have seen how they are made on other boats including stubby keel boats with centerboards, similar to the O'Day 25.

The stubby keel is typically contiguous with the hull. The slot of the trunk is typically added and the inter space filled with the ballast material. The ballast is then glassed in often resulting in the surface of the bilge.

If water has penetrated the ballast you have a problem that can be fixed but requires drying out. That takes months. If that is the problem, it does several things. First, it adds weight and if leaking in from that source weakens the adjacent areas. Second, if you bumped something in a weakened condition the whole keel might open up flooding the boat.

Therefore, contrary to earlier advice posted on this forum, I suggest that pull the boat to evaluate the keel. I am big on safety.

Keep in mind that just a couple of years ago a relatively new boat used by the University of Texas sailing team lost it keel in a race resulting in death of a couple of students. After careful analysis it was determined that previous damage to keel attaching bolts was never correctly fixed. It was a maintenance issue, not a design issue.

Ed K
26

 

[eddwill]

Ed,

One more reply about leaks in fiberglass boats. Where the water comes in is not necessarily opposite or adjacent where it gets inside.

Fiberglass boats are made of layers. Water and moisture can move from where it gets under first layer to where we find it.

You are finding it in the bilge, the designed lowest level on the boat above the keel. The bilge is below the waterline. Water can rise to the bilge as you imply about water entering the bilge from somewhere in the keel.

So at this point you can say that water may be entering from either any point of the hull above the keel, the keel joint, or somewhere on the keel as you suggest.

I never saw how a keel was made on the O'Day 25. However I have seen how they are made on other boats including stubby keel boats with centerboards, similar to the O'Day 25.

The stubby keel is typically contiguous with the hull. The slot of the trunk is typically added and the inter space filled with the ballast material. The ballast is then glassed in often resulting in the surface of the bilge.

If water has penetrated the ballast you have a problem that can be fixed but requires drying out. That takes months. If that is the problem, it does several things. First, it adds weight and if leaking in from that source weakens the adjacent areas. Second, if you bumped something in a weakened condition the whole keel might open up flooding the boat.

Therefore, contrary to earlier advice posted on this forum, I suggest that pull the boat to evaluate the keel. I am big on safety.

Keep in mind that just a couple of years ago a relatively new boat used by the University of Texas sailing team lost it keel in a race resulting in death of a couple of students. After careful analysis it was determined that previous damage to keel attaching bolts was never correctly fixed. It was a maintenance issue, not a design issue.

Ed K
26

Ed K,

I do know that the leak is originating in the school keel area. Either the keel pendent tube entrance or keel wedge retaining plate screws. I think it would be impossible for water to travel from a lower gudgeon through the single layer hull and show up in the bilge below the cabin sole without me detecting it. As for pulling the boat: It is a trailer boat that stays on the trailer when not in use. The hull is very sound. I think my knowledge of the structure of Fiberglass hulls goes beyond the ignorance of using a unsafe boat. The boat has never had or needed any structural repair. I am 49 years old and have owned over 10 boats, all which have been impeccably maintained by myself. Thanks for your concern of my safety, Ed

 

[Shoaldrafter]

Ed K,

I do know that the leak is originating in the school keel area. Either the keel pendent tube entrance or keel wedge retaining plate screws. I think it would be impossible for water to travel from a lower gudgeon through the single layer hull and show up in the bilge below the cabin sole without me detecting it. As for pulling the boat: It is a trailer boat that stays on the trailer when not in use. The hull is very sound. I think my knowledge of the structure of Fiberglass hulls goes beyond the ignorance of using a unsafe boat. The boat has never had or needed any structural repair. I am 49 years old and have owned over 10 boats, all which have been impeccably maintained by myself. Thanks for your concern of my safety, Ed

Ed,

Ed said, "I think it would be impossible for water to travel from a lower gudgeon through the single layer hull and show up in the bilge below the cabin sole without me detecting it."

I did not say that the water was coming from the lower gudgeon. I said it can be coming from a place other than where it is coming into the bilge.

Since the boat is dry sailed, you can work on it. You do not have to take centerboard out to try to fix two locations you suspect.

To prove your assertion get dye and dye water in bilge and see where dye comes out

I believe you said that your trailer has bunks. Regardless, it can be jacked up and blocked so that you can get at suspect screws. You only need to jack front. Let it tilt back and let stern end continue to rest on trailer. Remember to block stern end so that tilting front does not raise front of trailer. All you need to jack it is enought to get screw driver under wedge plates.

Back screws out and evaluate situation. Evaluate the glass holding screws in. I would suggest saturating it with penetrating epoxy but that might necessitate redrilling screw holes.

That would require enough space to get drill under keel, that would be an issue.

On the 26 you can see the two bolts that hold a block for the centerboard pendant. This can be accessed from inside without issue. The tube is much more difficult requiring removal of stairs and parts of counter bottom. That would be an all day project on a 26. Some 25's that I have seen have the same issue. The design changed several times.

There are full keel boats that use the bottom of the keel as bilge with a keel drain plug to fully drain them when out of water. But that is not the intent of these boats.

The use of penetrating epoxy will get epoxy into cracks, seams, and cravases that standard epoxy will not flow into. They make syringes for this application.

If you drill a downward sloping hole toward the screws retaining the wedge plate, you might get penetrating epoxy into your suspect area without removing screws? Keep in mind that epoxy is said to replace water and moisture and cure under these conditions.

Good luck.

Ed K
26