Knotmeter

Clydo

.
May 28, 2013
351
Catalina C310 SF Bay/Delta
Friend said he heard of knotmeter that doesn't use paddle wheel?
Anyone know about this? Thanks.

Clyde Thorington
C310 # 245
I LEANTOO
San Jose, CA
 
Jan 23, 2021
48
Catalina 315 81 Newport Beach
AIRMAR has the specifications, but I don't know anyone who has one. I was concerned about fouling since you can't paint it. I would love to know more about it...
 
Nov 8, 2007
1,562
Hunter 27_75-84 Sandusky Harbor Marina, Ohio
We dismounted our paddle wheel speed meter because our handheld GPS (and backup) are so much more accurate. I should add that currents in the Great Lakes where we sail are less than 1 knot. (the absolute accuracy of a paddle wheel is seldom better that +- 1 knot.)

I do remember a review of a fish finder and depth gauge that also senses the flow of water from sound reflections off the water. This can be an accurate measurement with no moving parts. It may be worth looking into.
 

DArcy

.
Feb 11, 2017
1,747
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
If you are not racing speed through the water isn't really all that important, SOG from a GPS is. Racing however speed through the water is important for tweaking sail trim. The paddle-less knot meter does sound interesting though, I wonder how accurate they are.
 
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Oct 4, 2014
78
Catalina 310 73 Monterey
We dismounted our paddle wheel speed meter because our handheld GPS (and backup) are so much more accurate. I should add that currents in the Great Lakes where we sail are less than 1 knot. (the absolute accuracy of a paddle wheel is seldom better that +- 1 knot.)

I do remember a review of a fish finder and depth gauge that also senses the flow of water from sound reflections off the water. This can be an accurate measurement with no moving parts. It may be worth looking into.
We don't use our paddle wheel knotmeter much, since we aren't racing, just pleasure sailing and I pay more attention to my internal funmeter anyway. The paddlewheel is in the bilge next to the capped thruhull, if I want it I put it in place.
But our autopilot does like to have the speed input from the knotmeter- if it isn't there the autopilot will go off course after maybe 10 minutes. I think it's programmed to vary response with speed, so lacking that input confuses it.
GPS is really not all that precise for instantaneous readings at low speeds, but it's great for average speed or distance covered, or SOG as mentioned. A GPS displaying speed that has not been artificially smoothed can display a speed while sitting on a stationary table. If the location is displayed as accurate to within lets say 10 ft, fairly typical for a WAAS corrected position, that means that your actual location is within a 10 ft radius circle. Let's say for example it updates every second. One update is at one edge of that circle, then a second later it sees itself at the other side. That is 20 ft in one second, roughly 13.5 mph, a significant error, and the unit hasn't actually moved.
That was just to illustrate a point, most of the time the error is much less. I use my GPS most of the time, but I understand it's limitations.
Once a friend and I were bringing a Catalina 27 from San Francisco Bay down to Monterey. We had some big wind and swell behind us, our average speed was over 7.5 knots, pretty good for that boat. But the GPS said that the max speed we reached was 13.5 knots! I don't claim that as real, I find it hard to believe that a Cat 27, even in a strong broad reach and surfing down swells, hit almost double hull speed.
 
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May 17, 2004
5,445
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
A GPS displaying speed that has not been artificially smoothed can display a speed while sitting on a stationary table. If the location is displayed as accurate to within lets say 10 ft, fairly typical for a WAAS corrected position, that means that your actual location is within a 10 ft radius circle. Let's say for example it updates every second. One update is at one edge of that circle, then a second later it sees itself at the other side. That is 20 ft in one second, roughly 13.5 mph, a significant error, and the unit hasn't actually moved.
Many GPS’s don’t calculate speed that way though. They use the Doppler shift effect to calculate speed relative to the satellites. You can definitely have flakey readings from surfing around on waves or yawing over them though. I also sometimes get flakey readings if I move around a certain way right behind the GPS. I assume that’s some kind of multi path interference from the signals bouncing off me. So the max speed is generally not to be trusted. But the instantaneous speed is more accurate than just distance divided by time.
 
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Oct 4, 2014
78
Catalina 310 73 Monterey
.

The system doesn't use doppler shift, it measure the time delay on a reference to calculate distance from each satellite, then uses those distances to calculate a position. A series of positions lets it calculate speed. That's why those small position errors can have it indicating a speed while the unit is stationary sitting on a table in a room.

The signals are quite faint, and can be blocked even by a body close by. Earlier systems had to have the antenna mounted well away from where folks would stand, but newer systems are not quite as sensitive to being blocked.
 
May 17, 2004
5,445
Beneteau Oceanis 37 Havre de Grace
.

The system doesn't use doppler shift, it measure the time delay on a reference to calculate distance from each satellite, then uses those distances to calculate a position. A series of positions lets it calculate speed. That's why those small position errors can have it indicating a speed while the unit is stationary sitting on a table in a room.

The signals are quite faint, and can be blocked even by a body close by. Earlier systems had to have the antenna mounted well away from where folks would stand, but newer systems are not quite as sensitive to being blocked.
The article you cited does describe how distances to satellites are used to calculate positions, but is silent on calculating speed or velocity. Here are some citations for using the Doppler shift to calculate velocity -


 
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Jan 7, 2011
5,259
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
I am on Lake Michigan, so I don’t usually worry about currents…SOG on my GPS is pretty close. My paddle wheel always reads wonky depending on what tack I am on.

I was out today in 15-17 knots of wind and 5-6 foot seas..an invigorating sail. My CP registered a top speed of 9.2 knots…We averaged about 6 knots over 3 hours and that included a stop back at the marina to drop the Admiral off, who was not enjoying the wind and waves today.

4679ED02-DFB6-4853-A46B-612B7049A24A.jpeg



Great fun!

Greg
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,810
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
For those who had relied on DR skills, speed over water was needed to predict your time of arrival. I still utilize my speed in the water before touching the throttle especially against a spring tide. Most of our trips have been calculated going with the tide and highest fuel economy, totally different kind of thinking.
 
Oct 19, 2017
7,816
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
There's this.
1655636201141.png

The Knotstick works on the same principal.
1655636403575.png
1655636448532.png

We used a version of this, the Speedwand, when I was a kid.
1655637195832.png

It's just a graduated cylinder with an intake at a right angle. Hold it upright over the side and measure the force of the water entering the right angle opening.

Another way is to time the passage of bubbles or some surface floatsom passing from bow to stern. Know your LWL and calculate your speed from there.

Take your LWL and divide it by the number of seconds it took for the bubble to travel the length of your waterline. This gives you the feet per second of your travel.

Then, multiply by 3600 to get the feet per hour.

Last, divide by 6076, the approximate feet in a nautical mile.

3600(LWL/s)/6076=k/h
Or
0.5925(LWL/s)=k/h

-Will
 
Oct 2, 2008
3,810
Pearson/ 530 Strafford, NH
I used popcorn from the bow to stern on a 30 foot boat. If it was five seconds, that would be six feet a second. Divide that into 6000 feet in a nautical mile, I was going 1000 mph. Look out top gun.
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,261
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Great writing, lousy math...
not 1000mph...
6 feet per second
1000 seconds
.28 nm/hour :yikes:

I feel the need... The need to be a speeding slug...:banghead:
 
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jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,261
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Ok DArcy....
how I worked the problem. I know it is old hat to write the problem on the board. Would not past muster in today's math class.

But here it is... with all it's warts.

30 ft / 5 sec = 6 ft per second travel of boat.
6076 feet to a Nautical Mile.
Seconds to travel a NM
6067/6 = 1012.7 seconds to go one NM

Number of seconds in an Hour =60 seconds in a minute *60 minutes to an hour =3600 sec.= 1 hour.

NM in one hour = to travel time 1012.7 seconds per NM divided by 3600 sec per hour.
1012.7/3600 = 0.28
But I could be using old math or off by a factor of 10
I await the math wizard to resolve the conundrum...
 
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May 7, 2012
1,504
Hunter e33 Maple Bay, BC
I’ll be your huckleberry.
John you are correct up to:
1012.7 seconds to go one NM.
So in one hour or 3,600 seconds you would go 3,600/1012.7 or 3.55 knots

Another way to look at this would be:
Boat goes 6’ per second; 60 seconds in a minute, so:
Boat goes 360’ per minute; 60 minutes in an hour, so:
Boat goes 21,600’ per hour, 6,076’ in a Nautical Mile, thus
Boat goes 3.55 nautical miles per hour or 3.55 knots