Knock-off anchors any good?

[Stu Jackson]

50% right

Ron, Stu isn't saying knock-offs are bad. He's saying that the CQR design drags. It doesn't stay put. You could plow a field with one. Get it?

AD, I agree about CQRs, based on Maine Sail's tests and I trust him more than most "publications." I used his research when we were anchor shopping a few years ago.

Knockoffs are bad, that's why they call them knockoffs, because if they were the same, they'd be the same price, so something's gotta give. Like seconds at a store - ask yourself what's the deal?

And for anyone who is still questioning these new generation of anchors, everyone I've talked to who has used them always says: "It pulls me off the bow!" "My old anchor didn't do that!" Hmmmm......

Here's a happy camper: my friend Steve, sailed his C34 from Vancouver, BC, he & family are now in Mexico

The Rocna. All 20kg of it with 100ft of chain. The rest of the world can debate all they like. When I pull into a place like Bodega Bay at midnight and the fog is so thick I can't see the jetty 50 feet away to make an entrance, I drop my hook in the rolling ocean swells with the surf crashing (Foster says it's like staying in a cheap Best Western beside the highway), and I sleep. And in the morning I have a windlass to pull the beast up and I wouldn't trade it for anything. (I also wouldn't add more chain - this works perfectly in 25 to 30 feet of water - you let all the chain out and you tie off nylon at the preferred scope and don't bother with snubbers and chain hooks and all that stuff...)

This was our best upgrade.

 

[Hermit Scott]

"After about 30 minutes of measuring, tip to tip, fluke lengths and angles I determined the Manta is an "exact" copy of the Bruce. It is also a cast anchor and carries a lifetime warranty! I already own a genuine Bruce 33 so I have no vested interest in knock off claws." Maine Sail posted on 2-14-2006
This was apparently before you bought your Rocna.
To find the entire thread, I searched "claw, bruce, anchor" , author "maine sail" and then selected oldest posts first. It was the first post on the list.
I must say the archive searches are much smoother than they were before. I used to dred going there to try to find something. This time it was quite nice. Bravo Phil!
After reading your post I bought a manta claw on ebay. They are cast and do have a lifetime warranty.

 

[Maine Sail]

"After about 30 minutes of measuring, tip to tip, fluke lengths and angles I determined the Manta is an "exact" copy of the Bruce. It is also a cast anchor and carries a lifetime warranty! I already own a genuine Bruce 33 so I have no vested interest in knock off claws." Maine Sail posted on 2-14-2006
This was apparently before you bought your Rocna.
To find the entire thread, I searched "claw, bruce, anchor" , author "maine sail" and then selected oldest posts first. It was the first post on the list.
I must say the archive searches are much smoother than they were before. I used to dred going there to try to find something. This time it was quite nice. Bravo Phil!
After reading your post I bought a manta claw on ebay. They are cast and do have a lifetime warranty.

I thought that was me and meant to put a winkie. I do remember measuring that Manta and it was very nearly identical. Since then though I have had a couple of instances to see knock of Bruce's that are very different. My neighbor Tom lost his Bruce up near Isle Au Haut in a tough bottom and replaced it with a Lewmar Claw. He swore it did not perform the same every time I talked to him, so I loaned him my Bruce. Sure enough it was different and to him therse differences were apparent in the performance as he claimed my Brice worked just like his old one.

I can't say for sure if the Manata anchors today are the same as they were back then but at least they have a lifetime warranty. The Bruce is still my favorite of the old gen anchors. My one complaint, always has been, is the limited holding power for a given weight. Your situation is good as you over sized it msot C-30 owners use a 22 lb...

As I said before you will probably never have a problem. I honestly thought you were talking about some of the eBay knock offs that are horrible copies not the Manta which when I measured it was a very good copy. Still not heat treated but a decent copy..

 

[MoonSailer]

I HAVE USED A 33# CLAW for 5 years ..no problems. I don't think that heat treatment works for a cast anchor. Heat treatment is used after an anchor is forged. http://www.swscc.com/informational/info_cast_vs_forged.htm

 

[Maine Sail]

I HAVE USED A 33# CLAW for 5 years ..no problems. I don't think that heat treatment works for a cast anchor. Heat treatment is used after an anchor is forged. http://www.swscc.com/informational/info_cast_vs_forged.htm

The original Bruce's were heat treated cast steel not cast iron..

 

[Hermit Scott]

I wrote that down wrong. The manta's are cast steel not cast iron. No mention of heat treating. I actually feel alot better about my anchor now that I am reviewing this.

 

[jibes138]

All this Heat is getting to me

I am a little concerned with this discussion about anchor A being "heat treated" and anchor B not being "heat treated."
Heat treating is a term that refers to a vast array of processes that change the material. As an example, one type of heat treating is annealing, another is stress relieving, a third is hardening, a fourth tempering. Heat treating in certain atmospheres can provide case hardening by diffusion of carbon or nitrogen atoms into the atomic structure of the metal increasing the density when it cools. So you can't really say that "heat treating" makes one anchor better than another unless you define the type of heat treating performed and the resulting improvement in mechanical properties.
As an example: The anchor is hardened and tempered to increase its' tensile strength from 70KSI to 120KSI. Or the anchor is normalized to eliminate internal stresses caused by uneven cooling inherent in the non uniform cross section structure of the casting design.
I would be concerned about a cast anchor from the perspective of internal defects including porosity, shrinkage voids or cracks. I'd be more interested in whether the anchor was non-destructive tested as part of the mfg. process including x-ray. I've seen lots of bad castings in my time. In my book a forged anchor or one fabricated from wrought material is preferable.
I love these anchor guys telling you they have a lifetime warranty. So when the anchor fails and your $350,000 passport 47 is smashed on the rocks, sunk, and a total wreck they will replace your anchor, gee thanks. No one will accept liability for the damage to the boat because they will claim they can't control how you used the anchor, how much scope, was it set, etc. So the warranty is close to worthless. You probably won't even have the anchor to return it for replacement.

 

[Hermit Scott]

So you can't really say that "heat treating" makes one anchor better than another unless you define the type of heat treating performed and the resulting improvement in mechanical properties.

I'm sure if they take the expense and time of the extra step of heat treating, that they would make sure it's a benefical structure change.(at least I hope so) If you annealed it to remove internal stress and give it a more uniform microstructure, I would say that would make one better than the other. I would want an anchors with a better toughness number considering what anchors endure. Heat treating could accomplish that.

 

[Ross]

There are so many steel alloys and and so many ways to treat to product that unless you are a metallurgist it is impossible to know that you are getting the product that you were sold. All metal starts out as a casting it then undergoes a series of reshaping efforts to produce everything from watch springs to highway bridge beams to extruded sailboat masts to electrical wire to rigging wire to tableware.

 

[BobM]

Just a reminder to all that the Manson's are available on ebay for a good price so there is an option to buying cheap knock-offs. $240 +$50 S&H gets you a new galvanized 25lb Manson from JSI for a 25-35 footer. A better option is that West Marine has galvanized 22lb Rocna (Mainesails gold standard) for $329 and if you choose the "ship to store" option shipping is free. You just need to pick it up at WM.

 

[Patrick17430]

Just a reminder to all that the Manson's are available on ebay for a good price so there is an option to buying cheap knock-offs. $240 +$50 S&H gets you a new galvanized 25lb Manson from JSI for a 25-35 footer. A better option is that West Marine has galvanized 22lb Rocna (Mainesails gold standard) for $329 and if you choose the "ship to store" option shipping is free. You just need to pick it up at WM.

Why is the Rocna a better option ? Is the Manson a knock-off ?

 

[Hermit Scott]

Why is the Rocna a better option ? Is the Manson a knock-off ?

Do you mean cheaply built ,poor quality? OR not the original designer?

 

[Tom S]

.........

Isn't the MS a knock-off of the Rocna? The Rocna website several years back kind of implied it was and inferior construction to boot. ........

Thats a bunch of CRAP. While the Rocna is a fine anchor, I have followed the maker of the Rocna since they first came on the scene and I have been quite a bit turned turned off by the way they will "infer" many things. They will put ~any~ other anchor in worse light just to try & make their anchor always the only 'best' anchor. Any positive anchor review for their anchor they will always refer to and post , but ANYTIME their anchor doesn't come out number 1 then they will come up with all sorts of excuses why the test was done incorrectly or the data wasn't calculated correctly, or or or......

If they want to infer that the Manson is a knock off then they should REALLY give credit to the original "Concave Plow" anchor that came on the scene and revolutionized all the newer generation anchors that have vastly improved anchors and anchoring. And that is the SPADE anchor. Well before the Rocna or the Manson Supreme there was the SPADE anchor and the people at Rocna and Manson slightly modified (and probably enhanced some things) the basic "Concave Plow" anchor design.

Never in any literature or writeups have I ever heard the people at Rocna give any credit to the creator of the SPADE anchor Alaine P (?) who's design they took and tweeked somewhat.

Doing this with anchor design is not new though. No anchor just design just appears out of the blue. The evolution & design of an anchor is an ever evolving thing that goes through periods of minor enhancements and then sometimes major leaps. The SPADE "Concave Plow" anchor was such a leap.

Now back to the Manson Supreme, I have closely examined the anchor and while it might not have quite the finish of somethings, I would not ever say that I was concerned of its construction where it counts. And that is whether its going to break on you. In real life I think the anchor will pull out of the bottom or a chain link will part before the anchor will break. Now if its not a real Manson Supreme or a not a real Rocna and its made of some cheap cast metal or alloy that’s a different thing. But if it’s a real Manson Supreme anchor one wouldn’t need worry

And if the people at Rocna are so concerned with the construction of the Manson Supreme (which is pure BS) then why isn't their anchor certified by Lloyds Register EMEA with a SHHP status, Super High Holding Power. The Manson Supreme is the first and only production boat anchor in the world to do so (From Mansons website).

Now I know that these things sometimes don't matter and sometimes companies don't want waste the time and cost to do it. But if Rocna wants to continue to throw some FUD around, maybe they need to rethink what they do. And there is no perfect anchor. No matter what anchor, I am sure I can find a condition where it will fail and another anchor will be superior.

Bottom line - the Manson Supreme is a damn fine anchor and dollar for dollar it surpasses the Rocna. Most people and even Mainesail put a Mason Supreme and the Rocna very close to each other in performance and both are leaps and bounds better than most anchors you see people on the bows of many boats cruising around the world.