keel winch problem dropping keel

trainmanjess · Jun 11, 2013

jmczzz said:
I have my M25 up off the trailer and tried to lower the keel with the wench. No go the winch only goes one way - UP.
I plan on putting a jack on the aft part of the keel and taking the strain off the cable and seeing if I can find the winch lock lever to jam it unlocked, then try to carefully and slowly lower the rear of the keel by letting the jack down. The keel cable appears new but is held by 3 u bolts so I surmise the whole set up is a jury rig.
Any advice or info on this would be appreciated.
James
pic of winch does anyone recognize the type? the handle seems to turn without moving the drum when I try to go in the let down direction. I didn't move it much, thought I might be unscrewing it and would create a bigger problem.

hello

I have a Mac25 also... that is the right wench for it... I have that winch on mine.... I believe when you try to lower the cable, there is too much friction and you are unscrewing the handle... if you unscrew the handle it will not mess up the winch or the cable... you have to make sure the handle is cranked on tight, then It will unwind the spool and let the cable down... it is a friction winch to hold the cable in place where you leave it.... do not put oil on the friction plates of it will not hold the keel up.... there should be a nut at the end of the crankshaft, you can fit a cut section of pipe between the handle and the nut to give you better control so the handle doesn't unscrew on you...

sincerely
Jess

THECUSCUS · Jun 11, 2013

Def looks like the correct winch. I think Trainman has a good idea.

Catketch · Jun 11, 2013

Hey James,

That looks just like the original factory winch on my boat as well. As others have said, it is a friction winch and the handle will turn freely when the weight of the board is removed via either resting on the trailer frame or being stopped by the lockdown bolt once fully deployed.

Does your winch stop paying out cable with the board partly down and tension on the cable? If so, you've got a problem with the braking mechanism in the winch. If it pays out cable until the weight of the centerboard is removed (i.e. a little slack in the cable) and then the handle spins freely, it is working as designed.

I believe that the friction plates on the winch are replaceable via a rebuild kit if that's what you need. Again, our friends at BWY are probably the only source for replacement parts or a new factory spec winch. If you do end up rebuilding it, post some photos for the rest of us

.

Best,
Dan

trainmanjess · Jun 11, 2013

jmczzz said:
Thanks guys, I'm not sure how to tighten the Handle. when I turn clockwise it clicks the winch and winds up. when i turn the handle counter clock wise it does not move the drum just seems to be unscrewing the handle. I will cut a pipe shim as trainman said and install. then should I try to hold the collar and turn the handle clockwise (right -tight)?
thanks jmczzz

hello

make sure the handle is on tight 1st... then place the pipe section on the shaft over the handle, then tighten the nut at the end down onto the pipe tight... this will prevent the winch handle from unscrewing... then try the winch in both directions and see if this helps... you will need weight on the cable to lower the keel, and get the winch barrel to lower the cable and work properly... with the keel not lowering, the cable will become loose and the barrel will stop and not turn to let out the cable...

sincerely
Jess

Catketch · Jun 11, 2013

jmczzz said:
I do not see a winch rebuild kit listed. A new winch is $95.00 so I'll try to repair the one I have first.

Yep, apparently I dreamed that thing about a rebuild kit...I couldn't find anything about it anywhere. Other users claim to have successfully installed a brake winch from Northern Tool (I'm not sure which one, they have a half dozen models ranging from $49 to $99). If it were my boat, and the original couldn't be made to work, I would order the replacement from BWY and avoid screwing around with retrofitting a different model.

caguy · Jun 11, 2013

It is the correct winch. It is a Dutton-Lainson brake winch. It is ok to oil it including the brake the way it is made the brake will work oil or no. The winch requires at least 80lbs of presure to release. Soak it for a couple of hours. The clicking thar you hear is the pall that will lock the gear and prevent it from dropping. You sometimes have to bump the handle counter clock wise for it to release the brake otherwise the handle just screws off. When cranking it up if you hear click that is good other wise the winch will not lock and bust your knuckles when the handle spins.
Here is a link to to the winch manual.

http://www.dutton-lainson.com/206306.pdf

centerline · Jun 11, 2013

support the keel from underneath and read this carefully...
the friction plates in the winch can rust together and not let it slip backwards when the handle is backed off...
the theory of operation is that when you crank the handle up, it tightens itself down on the threads of the shaft and squeezes the friction plates together to bring the keel up as you turn it....
and to let it down, when you back the handle off, it does NOT crank it down, but it unscrews and backs itself away from the friction plates so that they will slip backwards... and they will only slip as fast as the handle is turned because the shaft has to turn backwards to allow the drum to turn... if the drum tries to turn too fast it will begin to tighten the shaft into the threads of the handle your holding and brake itself.... as you keep cranking it feeds the friction plates the slack it needs to keep moving backwards... the clutch design in the winch is why it holds so well without a dog lever, and why it wont crank backwards without weight on the cable, but the handle will unscrew from the shaft.

so with this, if you were to remove the handle so there is no compression on the friction plates, and put a pipe wrench on the shaft and turn it backwards, it may break the rust loose that is holding the friction plates together... but the keel is going to drop all at once when it comes free without the handle attached, so it NEEDS to be supported.

if your boat is in the water, you can either load it on the trailer to support the keel, or run it up into about 2ft of water, but make sure the keel wont drop over about 6 inches. once you get it free, screw the handle on and your back in business.....

caguy · Jun 12, 2013

Centerline, congratulations, you are one of the few who have taken the time and understand how the winch works. What you are suggesting will should work. The keel should not free fall since he is hearing the clicking of he pawl when he cranks it up. There is a pawl, and it does need to be lubricated regularly. I used silicone spray though it doesn't last as long as WD40. I used it because I keep it on the boat to spray the slugs and mast track and it was handy. The pawll is the part that keeps the winch from free falling without it the handle will spin counter clockwise. I have always been able to release the brake by lubing the pressure plates and bumping the handle while it is still tight. The handle has a small amount of play in it and allows you to bump in reverse shocking the plates loose. If you did not hear the clicking of the pawl and the pawl is frozen unengaged, and you bump the handle backward, chances are the handle will pull out of your hand and come back around and rap you in the knuckles before you can say OH SHEET. Some of us learn the hard way.
Attached is a diagram of the winch and parts list. I took the liberty of editing your picture for those who are diagram challenged.

Tsatzsue · Jun 12, 2013

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&ipp=24&Ntt=brake+winch

Here is a link to the replacements. I went with the #1200 lb winch. Make sure you get the correct rotation. They have either an A or B in the model number if I remember correctly. It never ends.

caguy · Jun 12, 2013

Glad you got it solved. One word of caution, if you replace the cable tube, make sure that it is the same length. Longer is not better. I new a guy who made it too long and it got wrapped up in the reel and was pull off the through fitting, and if it happens it will happen over water.

centerline · Jun 12, 2013

Tsatzsue said:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/NTESearch?storeId=6970&ipp=24&Ntt=brake+winch

Here is a link to the replacements. I went with the #1200 lb winch. Make sure you get the correct rotation. They have either an A or B in the model number if I remember correctly. It never ends.

the higher the rating of the winch, the more cranks it will take to retract or extend it... (lower geared for pulling more weight)
the keel is 625lbs and the top end is anchored to the boat. it has somewhat of a bulb shape to the lower portion of it. about the most weight you will ever be actually lifting with the winch is about 400lbs.
I use an 800lb winch and it works well also....

lubrication of the winch with wd-40 is fine and will keep the frictions from rusting together, but im not sure you would want to use an actual oil on them, but ive never tried it so I dont know for sure. it would be a shame to ruin a perfectly good winch cuz you oiled the part that is supposed to grip and hold as you crank it:cry:....

caguy · Jun 13, 2013

centerline said:
the higher the rating of the winch, the more cranks it will take to retract or extend it... (lower geared for pulling more weight)
the keel is 625lbs and the top end is anchored to the boat. it has somewhat of a bulb shape to the lower portion of it. about the most weight you will ever be actually lifting with the winch is about 400lbs.
I use an 800lb winch and it works well also....

lubrication of the winch with wd-40 is fine and will keep the frictions from rusting together, but im not sure you would want to use an actual oil on them, but ive never tried it so I dont know for sure. it would be a shame to ruin a perfectly good winch cuz you oiled the part that is supposed to grip and hold as you crank it:cry:....

The manual recommended lubing the brake as well as the gears with oil, except under freezing conditions. Then they recommend silicone spray. As mentioned earlier I use the silcon because I keep a can of it in the cabin to lubricate the mast track and slugs.

THECUSCUS · Jun 14, 2013

I think you guys better read the manual alittle more closely.

WINCH MAINTENANCE - In order to insure maximum performance, a periodic inspection for any necessary preventive maintenance should be made. Check at least once annually and more fre- quently when the winch is exposed to an environ- ment which is particularly dirty or wet. For continued smooth performance and increased life, occasional- ly grease gears, reel shaft and handle threads. An
occasional drop of oil on the drive shaft bearings is also recommended. If winch will be used in freezing, icy conditions, apply silicone spray to ratchet pawl and spacer items V, W, X or Y. Note: Do not oil or grease brake mechanism items H and J.
Keep winch in good working order. Damaged or severely-worn parts create unnecessary dangers and could result in personal injury or property damage.

Kestle · Jun 14, 2013

Somewhat related point...

If you look at the tube your cable is coming thru, the winch cable is pressing against the inner wall. I came back to find a boat full of water once, from a tube failure.

I added a plug of PVC to center the cable, and eliminate the question of tube wear. It also will keep your bilge drier.

Jeff

keel winch problem dropping keel

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