Has anyone had a bit of keel separation on their lead or cast iron keel. I bought a 25' sailboat with a small separation of the keel to hull particularly in the front. I cranked most of the bolts tighter to decrease the separation however the front two bolts turned too easily leading me to believe they may have been stripped. I stopped turning them and filled in the separation with 3M5200, marinetex and liquid fiberglass. I then covered the bottom hull and keel with Anti-fouling. The keel seems to have had a hit on the front bottom as there is an indentation however when asking a marina owner looking at it he didn't think much of it. I recently had it surveyed and the surveyor didn't find any abuse to the vessel. Any recommendations, annecdotes, cures etc. The boat hasn't been in the water yet and due to wind and weight the front of the keel to hull seems to have moved a bit as paint is chipping there. Any help appreciated. Mark
Keel Separation
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The good news
...is that you discovered this on land instead of water, which could have proved fatal. I imagine it's rectified by reboaring new holes from the bilge, but talk to the yard. This separation is also unsual, from what I've seen on these posts. The potential catastrophic nature of this failure suggests the manufacturer may have some redundant measures in place to ensure the thing doesn't plop off.
...is that you discovered this on land instead of water, which could have proved fatal. I imagine it's rectified by reboaring new holes from the bilge, but talk to the yard. This separation is also unsual, from what I've seen on these posts. The potential catastrophic nature of this failure suggests the manufacturer may have some redundant measures in place to ensure the thing doesn't plop off.
It worked form me
I had a similar problem once on a cape cod mercury which was the result of rusted keel bolts.(16 footer, 350 lb keel). With the boat on the trailer I supported the keel so that it would not drop whemn the keel bolts were completely drilled out.. After drilling/grinding out the old bolds I refastened the keel with new SS keel bolt (from the manufacturer) & caulked & tightened. Had the boat for 5 more years before selling her. No problem Mel
I had a similar problem once on a cape cod mercury which was the result of rusted keel bolts.(16 footer, 350 lb keel). With the boat on the trailer I supported the keel so that it would not drop whemn the keel bolts were completely drilled out.. After drilling/grinding out the old bolds I refastened the keel with new SS keel bolt (from the manufacturer) & caulked & tightened. Had the boat for 5 more years before selling her. No problem Mel
Could you be a bit more specific about...
your symptoms? The front two bolts that turned too easy; was it the bolts or the nuts? If it is the bolts, you could lift the boat off the keel to see whether you can pour molten lead down the bolt shaft and into the area around the bottom of the keel bolt to reseat. If it is the nut that turns too easy, remove each nut and inspect the threads for stretching, damage or stripping. If the threads are stripped, then add about one inch of shim to raise the nut into good thread. If you have the boat off the keel, clean the keel and stub joint and reseal with 3M5200. Use a torque wrench with the correct setting for your boat (Hunter Customer Service can tell you). Terry
your symptoms? The front two bolts that turned too easy; was it the bolts or the nuts? If it is the bolts, you could lift the boat off the keel to see whether you can pour molten lead down the bolt shaft and into the area around the bottom of the keel bolt to reseat. If it is the nut that turns too easy, remove each nut and inspect the threads for stretching, damage or stripping. If the threads are stripped, then add about one inch of shim to raise the nut into good thread. If you have the boat off the keel, clean the keel and stub joint and reseal with 3M5200. Use a torque wrench with the correct setting for your boat (Hunter Customer Service can tell you). Terry
Aren't keel bolts made as a 'J'?
I thought they were all bent at the bottom so they can never turn or be removed. Seems to me,,. *o
I thought they were all bent at the bottom so they can never turn or be removed. Seems to me,,. *o
Regarding "could you be more specific"
The nuts are turning with little resistance. Your ideas and insight seem to make the most sense so far. I think I'll try to shim and possibly replace the nuts all together, thanks.
The nuts are turning with little resistance. Your ideas and insight seem to make the most sense so far. I think I'll try to shim and possibly replace the nuts all together, thanks.
Epoxy
We had separation of the keep on the aft edge of our Ericson 38. The advice that we received was that the best way to fix things was to have the keel dropped, cleaned, and re-bedded using thickened epoxy. The keel is now held on so well that I am told you could probably remove the bolts and not have it drop off. Not cheap, but a good final solution. Steve Christensen
We had separation of the keep on the aft edge of our Ericson 38. The advice that we received was that the best way to fix things was to have the keel dropped, cleaned, and re-bedded using thickened epoxy. The keel is now held on so well that I am told you could probably remove the bolts and not have it drop off. Not cheap, but a good final solution. Steve Christensen
Fred, I think you're right, but have never...
confirmed it. If his threads are stripped he can add a one inch thick washer to his keel bolt which will raise his nuts (no pun intended) to fresh threads. I think it would be wise for him to lift his boat off of the keel (since he is already on the hard) clean up the keel stub joint and then reseal with 3M5200 (most reputable yards use it rather than epoxy). Hunter can tell him the correct torque setting for his boat. New SS nuts would be a good step, too. Terry
confirmed it. If his threads are stripped he can add a one inch thick washer to his keel bolt which will raise his nuts (no pun intended) to fresh threads. I think it would be wise for him to lift his boat off of the keel (since he is already on the hard) clean up the keel stub joint and then reseal with 3M5200 (most reputable yards use it rather than epoxy). Hunter can tell him the correct torque setting for his boat. New SS nuts would be a good step, too. Terry
Had my keel....
......installed in '95. To this day I cannot find the hull to keel joint. I was also told by the yard manager, the the keel bolts could almost be removed and the keel would stay on with the 5200 the used to install. Fred, you are correct the keel bolts are in fact J hooks cast into the keel. However pouring molten lead into the wholes would simply not be strong enough. The lead for the keel must be poured in one complete casting to be strong enough.
......installed in '95. To this day I cannot find the hull to keel joint. I was also told by the yard manager, the the keel bolts could almost be removed and the keel would stay on with the 5200 the used to install. Fred, you are correct the keel bolts are in fact J hooks cast into the keel. However pouring molten lead into the wholes would simply not be strong enough. The lead for the keel must be poured in one complete casting to be strong enough.
Keel to hull with 5200
I would NOT use something brittle like epoxy for bonding the fin keel to the hull. One underwater strike and this 'seal' is done for. The same goes for glassing over the joint with cloth and resin. As I have reiterated many times-- 3M's 5200 is the industry standard for keel-hull bonds. And the people here claiming what sounds like anecdotal BS are actually right-- the 5200 will hold better than the bolts. At 700 lbs/sq inch (assuming adequate surface adhesion) less than three square inches would hold my keel on in static mode and the 5200 would not destruct. Applied liberally (for there is only one way to do this, and that's liberally) all over the top of a properly-prepared lead fin keel, and given time to set up before full torque is applied to the bolts, there is no way it is coming off in regular use. I will say nothing about other bedding compounds out there that attempt to 'compete with' 5200; but I, as well as many others, are typically betting our lives on the strength and resiliency of 5200 every sailing day, and our keels are not falling off. Why even expend the intellectual energy to devise any other way to do this? JC 2
I would NOT use something brittle like epoxy for bonding the fin keel to the hull. One underwater strike and this 'seal' is done for. The same goes for glassing over the joint with cloth and resin. As I have reiterated many times-- 3M's 5200 is the industry standard for keel-hull bonds. And the people here claiming what sounds like anecdotal BS are actually right-- the 5200 will hold better than the bolts. At 700 lbs/sq inch (assuming adequate surface adhesion) less than three square inches would hold my keel on in static mode and the 5200 would not destruct. Applied liberally (for there is only one way to do this, and that's liberally) all over the top of a properly-prepared lead fin keel, and given time to set up before full torque is applied to the bolts, there is no way it is coming off in regular use. I will say nothing about other bedding compounds out there that attempt to 'compete with' 5200; but I, as well as many others, are typically betting our lives on the strength and resiliency of 5200 every sailing day, and our keels are not falling off. Why even expend the intellectual energy to devise any other way to do this? JC 2
Epoxy vs 5200
Well JC, I'm glad that you are happy with your 5200, but it is not the only way to do things. Bay City Michigan, where I boat, is the home of Gougeon Brothers, the makers of West System epoxy, who I suspect know a bit more about the uses and capabilities of epoxy than either of us. When properly done (as taught to the local boatyards) epoxy putty makes a fantastic hull to keel bond that is stronger than the fiberglass itself, and more flexible than the hull. Unless you know more than the Gougeon Brothers, perhaps it is a good thing that as you wrote above - "I will say nothing about other bedding compounds..." Steve Christensen
Well JC, I'm glad that you are happy with your 5200, but it is not the only way to do things. Bay City Michigan, where I boat, is the home of Gougeon Brothers, the makers of West System epoxy, who I suspect know a bit more about the uses and capabilities of epoxy than either of us. When properly done (as taught to the local boatyards) epoxy putty makes a fantastic hull to keel bond that is stronger than the fiberglass itself, and more flexible than the hull. Unless you know more than the Gougeon Brothers, perhaps it is a good thing that as you wrote above - "I will say nothing about other bedding compounds..." Steve Christensen
STEVE!!
Such anger in your post!! why? JC is speaking first of all, his personal opinion, and second, his family have designed sailboats for many years. I suspect he knows what the hell he's talking about. He is also far from the first person to swear by 5200 as a very agressive bonding agent. Knowbody is putting down West System.
Such anger in your post!! why? JC is speaking first of all, his personal opinion, and second, his family have designed sailboats for many years. I suspect he knows what the hell he's talking about. He is also far from the first person to swear by 5200 as a very agressive bonding agent. Knowbody is putting down West System.
ALAN!!
Such misrepresentation in your post!! I'm not angry with JC, just amused. From his post he sounds like the sort of person who has to be agreed with - that HIS way (5200 in this case) is the only way to do things. I disagree, and believe he is misinformed as to the merits of the use of epoxy to bond a keel. Let that be an end to it.
Such misrepresentation in your post!! I'm not angry with JC, just amused. From his post he sounds like the sort of person who has to be agreed with - that HIS way (5200 in this case) is the only way to do things. I disagree, and believe he is misinformed as to the merits of the use of epoxy to bond a keel. Let that be an end to it.
Another thought
Since I am about to drop a keel on a Hunter 27, I'd like to drag this out a bit more - I wonder if a draw back of thickened epoxy or 5200 might be not ever getting the keel off again? Anyone know what Hunter used? If using 5200, would the proper method be to snugging up bolts and torquing after it begins to set? Randy
Since I am about to drop a keel on a Hunter 27, I'd like to drag this out a bit more - I wonder if a draw back of thickened epoxy or 5200 might be not ever getting the keel off again? Anyone know what Hunter used? If using 5200, would the proper method be to snugging up bolts and torquing after it begins to set? Randy
Hard to remove
If you were to use epoxy the keel can NOT beremoved except with a saw. On the other hand, using epoxy, there should be no reason to ever have to remove it. As mentioned I think highly of this approach, BUT it needs professional quality preparation of the surface and application to work well. (Which may be why there are some negative experiences out there with epoxy.) 5200 has the advantage of being more readily removable, but having done it, I can tell you that it is not easy. Even with the keel hanging free (all 7000 lbs of it) it was a bear for the yard to pry the keel off from the original 5200 sealant. But it is more user friendly, and could be done by anyone. Get the surfaces clean of all prior sealant and mold release, oop it up with sealant, and apply the hull weight. As JC mentioned, do NOT tighten up on the keel bolts until the sealant has set, or you will just squish it all out.
If you were to use epoxy the keel can NOT beremoved except with a saw. On the other hand, using epoxy, there should be no reason to ever have to remove it. As mentioned I think highly of this approach, BUT it needs professional quality preparation of the surface and application to work well. (Which may be why there are some negative experiences out there with epoxy.) 5200 has the advantage of being more readily removable, but having done it, I can tell you that it is not easy. Even with the keel hanging free (all 7000 lbs of it) it was a bear for the yard to pry the keel off from the original 5200 sealant. But it is more user friendly, and could be done by anyone. Get the surfaces clean of all prior sealant and mold release, oop it up with sealant, and apply the hull weight. As JC mentioned, do NOT tighten up on the keel bolts until the sealant has set, or you will just squish it all out.
Randy, lots of opinions on this thread...
You might want to consult with a local profesional yard that does hull joints on a routine basis. Here is what a left coast quality yard did to our boat with good results: 1. Lifted boat off of keel. 2. Cleaned keel and keel stub joint. 3. Applied 3M5200 to joint. 4. Set boat back on keel and torqued bolts BEFORE sealant had set. Some squished out. 5. Retorqued several times before splash. 6. Seven coats of barrier coating to seal the keel. 7. Ground away barrier coat from joint seam. 8. Two coats of hard bottom paint over keel and stub joint barrier coating. 9. Two coats of ablative bottom paint. Terry P.S. Our yard recommended 3M5200 over epoxy mainly because of its bonding strength and it does not cure hard. They advised me that most yards today use 3M5200 for these reasons.
You might want to consult with a local profesional yard that does hull joints on a routine basis. Here is what a left coast quality yard did to our boat with good results: 1. Lifted boat off of keel. 2. Cleaned keel and keel stub joint. 3. Applied 3M5200 to joint. 4. Set boat back on keel and torqued bolts BEFORE sealant had set. Some squished out. 5. Retorqued several times before splash. 6. Seven coats of barrier coating to seal the keel. 7. Ground away barrier coat from joint seam. 8. Two coats of hard bottom paint over keel and stub joint barrier coating. 9. Two coats of ablative bottom paint. Terry P.S. Our yard recommended 3M5200 over epoxy mainly because of its bonding strength and it does not cure hard. They advised me that most yards today use 3M5200 for these reasons.
interested
i have mirage 27 took keel nuts offf one by one recaulked then replaced should i have dropped keeel and recaulked before sincerely unsure
i have mirage 27 took keel nuts offf one by one recaulked then replaced should i have dropped keeel and recaulked before sincerely unsure
should a yard remove keel
can a keel be removed when the boat is in here cradle or should u have a yard do the work. i know lifting will be required . my cradle can be adjusted higher.does the keel have to be completely removed or just enough to get the old material out.what would be the smartest thing to do. because at this point in time sailing here is out of the question were froze up in the harbour.
can a keel be removed when the boat is in here cradle or should u have a yard do the work. i know lifting will be required . my cradle can be adjusted higher.does the keel have to be completely removed or just enough to get the old material out.what would be the smartest thing to do. because at this point in time sailing here is out of the question were froze up in the harbour.
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