Just what is blue water? Serious question.

jibes138 · Feb 2, 2011

Not sure if there is a specific definition but a suggestion might be to look at a nautical chart, there are distinctive shades of blue based on the depth, so you might say where the chart is the deepest color blue might be considered blue water. Of course if cliffs drop into the sea to depths of thousands of feet there may not be a light shade of blue near shore. 80 miles off shore is probably a limit for most boats to sail in a day so that could be another definition.
Many people have commented on the capability of boats versus sailors. If you read the classic "Fastnet Force 10" it makes this point. Of the boats abandoned during the race most or all were found floating later on. Very few boats sank due to structural failure or other causes, but the conditions were so extreme people were asking to be rescued by the dozens. Several lives were lost also.

Bill Roosa · Feb 2, 2011

assuming you and the crew are up to it, you are talking tankage and storage. Take some notes on how much water, fuel, food and propane you use this coming season to get an idea of how fast you drain the tanks. That will give you some planing factors so you know how long you can stay out at sea and, given a planing speed, how far you can go between stops

shemandr · Feb 2, 2011

There was a post on this thread that indicated "Blue water" is out of range for refuge when the weather goes bad. That does it for me. I think the difference in coastal cruising and blue water is how far it is to safty. In other words you are going to have to deal with that gale or storm. You can't call Mr. Wizard.

Mac · Feb 2, 2011

Good question

I agree with you RGallagher, if you don't learn now, when will you learn? I'm in the same boat as you, no pun intendent, but I would like to cross the gulf and travel the bahamas as well. Maybe the magazines that we all read, the websites we search really make it something that we all want to accomplish. I sail a Mac 25 which I know is not a blue water boat, but I've been out in some heavy weather and I know how to handle it. But I do sail on a lake and not on the coast. I think what we need to do, is first cross with an experienced sailor either on the same boat or as a group to help us along. My wife and I will retire in 4 yrs at age 55 and I feel we will folllow our dreams. Hopefully you will to! Good luck and safe sailing! Jerry Mac

MrBill_FLL · Feb 2, 2011

when you can afford the time, to wait for weather, I think you can make a multi day transit in a coastal rated boat. people do it all the time.

and like others said, in the end, its the crew that really matters.

vikki0730 · Feb 2, 2011

rgallagher said:
To all of you that took time to answer my question I thank you. I guess I did not explain myself clear enough. I know blue water is blue. I have blue water in my comode!

I just was not sure if island hoping around the Bahamas would be blue water, but i guess it is blue water to get there and beyond.

To those who raise the question if you have to ask you are not ready I say "what?" I really do not believe that question defines my abilities and I hope those answers do not make others feel like they are not or never ready. As a teacher I firmly believe you are learning every day. If I waited until I was "ready" I would never leave the docks.

We are planning on a cruise in the near future. Our deired boat is an Endeavour 40 so I believe from what I have read and the questions I have asked.......we will be ready (if only by my definition).

I believe most people mean ready as "what experience do you have" not that you know everything...which no one ever will. I would suggest that you and your wife should become comfortable with night sails, with 2 hour sailing shifts over 24-48 hours and ask yourself what is the worst seas you have been in and how did both of you handle it. I'll mention again...safety equipment. It might seem like this is a fun, pleasurable thing to do and often it is but it can be hell in the wrong conditions and boats and people can and do get damaged and it can be a matter of life and death. We had friends caught in a storm off the Bahamas and they were lucky enough to end up on a reef. The boat was totaled but they were alive and saved by helicopter (which they had to pay for). When you go off shore you are not only a sailor but potentially a mechanic, an electronics expert, a navigator (without the help of electronics), a nurse/doctor and everything else in between.

We have had weird things happen. We have had electronics go out and parts break like the fiddle on the main traveler which could have been a real problem if we didn't catch the boom in time. Anything can happen and you have to be ready as a team to handle it.

The Bahamas may not seem far from Florida but you have to cross the Gulf Stream which is often rough. There are several different crossings and some are easier than others. Being in the Gulf Stream with a beam current (odd Miami) is bad enough let alone be there in northerly winds. The current can push you places you don't want to go. Just educate yourself and always respectful of the awesome power that is the sea.

LuzSD · Feb 3, 2011

vikki0730 said:
I believe most people mean ready as "what experience do you have" not that you know everything...which no one ever will. I would suggest that you and your wife should become comfortable with night sails, with 2 hour sailing shifts over 24-48 hours and ask yourself what is the worst seas you have been in and how did both of you handle it. I'll mention again...safety equipment. It might seem like this is a fun, pleasurable thing to do and often it is but it can be hell in the wrong conditions and boats and people can and do get damaged and it can be a matter of life and death. We had friends caught in a storm off the Bahamas and they were lucky enough to end up on a reef. The boat was totaled but they were alive and saved by helicopter (which they had to pay for). When you go off shore you are not only a sailor but potentially a mechanic, an electronics expert, a navigator (without the help of electronics), a nurse/doctor and everything else in between.

We have had weird things happen. We have had electronics go out and parts break like the fiddle on the main traveler which could have been a real problem if we didn't catch the boom in time. Anything can happen and you have to be ready as a team to handle it.

The Bahamas may not seem far from Florida but you have to cross the Gulf Stream which is often rough. There are several different crossings and some are easier than others. Being in the Gulf Stream with a beam current (odd Miami) is bad enough let alone be there in northerly winds. The current can push you places you don't want to go. Just educate yourself and always respectful of the awesome power that is the sea.

vikki0730: What a great post, you write well and make such solid points, good read!

c_witch · Feb 3, 2011

Hiee,

Just my 2 cents worth. It seems to me that you are 'Blue Water' sailing when you are so far
off shore as to not to be able to run for safety within a 24 hour window.
A blue water boat. Seems like pretty much common sense ie plenty of tankage secure storage,being able to furl and reef very quickly etc. I also always think about what will happen
if we are broached and rolled. Are the hatches all watertight and able to withstand the inpact of the water as well as the companionway. What will happen to everything on deck.

Brina

RON20406 · Feb 3, 2011

I always love this discussion, but I think about it differently than most sailors. A blue water boat is any well found boat capable of making an offshore passage with a competent captain and/or crew. I have found in my cruising experience that there is no speciific style, draft, beam, or design of a blue water vessel based upon hundreds of varied vessels I've encountered that consistently made serious passages offshore. I have also experienced the professorial tyrant who will declare without hesistation what a serious boat must have. The majority of them always miss a weather window and are busy fixing/repairing one more inconsequential thing of immense importance as they pontificate how, when and where you should make your passage. I have met them after returning from a successful offshore cruise with a whole new set of devoted listeners as they piddle from one task to another and anchored in the same spot when we left. They rarely leave. But, if you want to know what a good blue water boat is . . . got a couple hours?

boatgearguy · Feb 3, 2011

Absolutely the best description of a "blue water" boat I've ever read, I'm saving this one.

boatgearguy · Feb 3, 2011

RichH said:
Joe's explanation is the best.

There are structural/strength requirements and built-in 'redundancies' for a 'blue water' boat that make it 'safer' than a boat used for island hopping / coastal sailing.
A blue water designed boat is typically 3 (or more) times as 'strong' as it needs to be, while a 'coastal' boat will be typically only 2x as strong as it needs to be for the worst conditions. This '3 times as strong' is based on centuries of historical data ... those that are less strong typically dont make it 'on the average' for long passagemaking without repair or rebuild enroute, etc..

The features of 'blue water' boat will typically have:
• very strong and usually very small 'windows' or portlight to survive the rigors of the full weight of a boarding wave,
• a companionway that is really strong and can survive a large boarding wave that crashes over the stern.
• rapidly draining cockpit and usually a quite small cockpit so that if (or rather when) the boat becomes 'pooped' the small cockpit wont ship a LOT of water and will 'clear'/drain rapidly .... and small enough so that you dont get 'washed around' in the cockpit. A large water filled cockpit can severely 'squat' the stern, making your stern lower in the water & even more vulnerable for the 'next' boarding wave.
• a large 'bridge deck' to prevent/lessen down-flooding from the cockpit to 'down below'
• Oversized or beefed-up rigging, chainplates, etc.
• A sail plan that can be easily reefed, and with 'multiple' reef points. Cutter rigs and Solent rigs seem to be the current 'favored' or preferred for long distance cruisers.
• Triple stitched and otherwise reinforced sails ... possibly will be set up with a separate mast track for a 'trysail'.
• A very strong hull, topsides, deck, coachroof and hull to deck joint.
• a boat that is 'SEA-KINDLY' - a boat with a gentle motion when in a large sea-state; not a lightweight 'vomit comet' whose fast 'roll period' will loosen dental fillings from your teeth .... a boat that wont tired you out after a few days sailing. More of a deeper v shape to the hull to prevent 'slamming' and 'pounding' as with the 'flattish' bottom as is found on the modern 'production type' boats.
• a boat that has 'stowage' capacity and wont sink deeply beyond the normal waterline when loaded; not a 'weekend' design.
• A boat that has adequate 'handholds' throughout the inside (and outside) the boat. This will prevent being 'slammed' against a hull side, etc. in a heavy seaway. Look for hand holds that are accessible so you dont have to let go of one to reach the next .... all the way through the boat. Most of the modern 'production' boats seem to omit this vital attribute.
• Large capacity tankage - fuel & water.
• NO 'pullman berths', yet berths that can be rigged with leecloths - to keep you in one place when the weather is 'rough'

A blue water boat will be built to withstand just about whatever the weather gods may bring .... when you cant anchor for the night or run/scurry into a close-by 'port'.

For 'blue water' boats seek out those designers who specialize in such boats: Robert Perry, Bob Harris, Bill Creighlock, Rob Ladd, Peter Beeldsnijder, Petersen, etc. etc. and their boats: Baba, Tashiba, Oyster, Tayana, Valiant, Passport, Pacific Seacraft, Amel, Hallberg, Morris, etc. etc. etc. etc. .... all 'go anywhere' boats with 'proven' passage-making histories. Let these design characteristics influence your choice of the 'lesser' and less seaworthy designs.

A 'coastal' boat can easily sail from Newfoundland, all the way down the East coast to Trinidad by 'island hopping' by waiting for the correct 'weather windows'. IF you want to go to Central or South America from Fla, etc (across the Lower Gulf, the Yucatan Channel, and the Western Caribb.) ... you really should have a 'blue water' boat, a 'sea-kindly' boat not a 'flat-bottomed cork' that is going to beat you up and thoroughly 'tire you out' when the weather turns 'ugly'.

Sorry about previous post, I'm new to this forum, this is what I was referring to.

Stu Jackson · Feb 3, 2011

rongvald: quite right. From the link I posted earlier:

I find it really interesting on the whole debate of what makes an offshore sail boat. It is unbelievable how much BS floats around and how many people have opinions but no experience based on the particular boat they happen to have an opinion on. I now believe it matters far more how the boat is prepared than what boat it is. Obviously you need a minimum standard in terms of hull integrity and rig strength and I think the Catalina 34 has that easilly. The question is can the boat and crew be prepared for offshore? I believe the answer question lies only with the skipper who does the preparation. In our case, we have had a fairly good shakedown cruise and I rate the boat highly. I've had "experienced" sailors who were aghast that I would take my family with no offshore experience in a Catalina 34 from Vancouver to San Francisco - a nasty bit of coast. And it takes some serious thought to call bull#### and say you're up to the challenge having never sailed in an ocean swell. I've also had experienced sailors who say go to the Marquesas and you'll find a lot of less capable boats than yours crewed by Europeans having the time of their lives. And you'll also find North Americans with real fancy boats with a lot of broken bits waiting for parts.

vikki0730 · Feb 3, 2011

LuzSD said:
vikki0730: What a great post, you write well and make such solid points, good read!

Thank you! Certainly don't know everything but have sailed the eastern seaboard, Caribbean and the South Pacific (I swear using Cook's freakin charts! lol). Nothing gets you paying attention more than when the snail trails you got from the last sailor you met who didn't end up on the reef shows you going over land on your plotter! In Tonga there was a 56 degree deviation! Anyway...we are big on safety so we have a SSB, harnesses, are jacked in and reef before we have to. Our boat is our home and everything we own is on it and still all can be replaced but we can't. Next sailing adventure on a friend's boat end of March...east coast of Oz! Very excited! My dad always asks me before we go out if I am a little afraid and I always say yes and he says...good the day you say no I will really start to worry. The ocean is powerful and mother nature can be mean and nasty...a little respect goes a long way. I've been out on nasty seas but I have no real need to tell the tall tale...I'd rather be a fair weather sailor and be having 1 more Painkiller while I'm waiting for the weather to pass.

Maine Sail · Feb 3, 2011

There are many factors but as most have said the crew is likely the the most important aspect. Then you need adequate tankage and stowage and on, and on, and on.

For me as much as I love the Chevy, Ford Chrysler boats there are two instances of my own accord that have convinced me what I want and don't want to put under me in rough weather.

On a delivery to Nova Scotia in the 90's we hit an unpredicted north/northeasterly in a Chevy. It blew over thirty for over 24 hours beating into it. When these fall fronts move in to the Northeast the seas build rapidly and are nearly always very short and steep despite wind speeds below 45 knots. The Perfect Storm is a great example. The boat we were delivering was creaking, groaning, shuddering and flexing like a Charleston Chew in the hot sun. We did everything we could to to minimize sail and treat the boat gently but nothing helped. By minimizing the sail to a level lower than we should have we prolonged our stay in the rough weather. A more stoutly built vessel would not have required the massive reductions and thus we would have had a higher through water speed. Even though this boat was a lot faster than a "blue water boat" in the storm conditions it was not. By the time we pulled into Yarmouth, which was not even our destination, the bulkheads were so knocked out of whack that none of the interior doors would close.

The owner, who was not on-board for the delivery, tried to blame us for the bulkheads breaking free. I worry what would have happened if that was more than a two day jaunt as the boat was literally coming unglued at the bulkheads.

On our own boat built by a popular domestic builder a similar event happened. The bulkhead cocked all the SCREWS holding it in place after some rough weather sailing. The manufacturers response " that's odd we've never had that happen before.."...

After these two experiences properly tabbed bulkheads, not screwed in place bulkheads, would be a pre-requisite for me to have the right comfort level.

Most any boat can survive a short off shore storm but my own personal comfort has been tested, and as a result, I have my own ideas about what I would feel comfortable in while in the middle of the Atlantic in 40+ for four days+.

You need to do your own soul searching for your own answer. Sailing different boats in heavy weather should be a measure you strive to satisfy because piece of mind at sea, and a strong personal belief in what is under you, is a powerful tool, in fact, likely more powerful than what the boat is.

There have been many "production" and "blue water boats found bobbing in the ocean after unskilled crew abandoned them. There are far more cases of blue water boats abandoned by inexperienced crew than cases of "production boats" falling apart.

If someone can point me to a case where a production boat feel apart in rough weather and sank as a result it would be a good story to point to but I've yet to find a good one. I've found plenty of cases though of inexperienced crew abandoning boats that survive the storm both "production" and "blue water"..

Slade · Feb 3, 2011

Read, read, and then read some more. Be sure to keep getting out on the water as much as possible...in all kinds of weather. I've been on 17 footers and broken the mast when the tornado came sweeping through. Sailed my little (slightly modified) Starwind 19 20 miles off Key Largo and then down to Key West in 6-8 ft seas for 10 days in Hawk Channel. Kept going back for 3 years. Bareboated an ODay 34 to the Bahamas from Ft Lauderdale and a Tartan 37 a few years later. The ODay was taken out of the fleet after we reported to the Coast Guard what a disaster it was. (Exceptionally poor maintenance..one keel bolt intact) The Tartan was a tank and never blinked an eye.
I survived all these encounters because I was willing to try and was willing to go. But, it is essential to have some idea of what you're getting into. If you're not hitching real rides then READ!
Blue water boats? Read "10 Hours to Dawn" and then tell me about boat design and the ocean. Sail magazine says the Cabo Rico 40 is the ultimate blue water boat. I'm a sucker for classic designs and come Lottery day I may just have to pick one up. However, if you've spent time in the back country, on mountains, or at sea for any real length of time...then you know Mother Nature can and will kick your a@# anytime she sees fit. Prepare, practice, pursue. They don't call it adventure when it's guaranteed.
PS--I agree that asking a question doesn't preclude you from having knowledge or experience...it just shows you have wisdom to tap others for their knowledge and experience....no difference from reading..I think. Bllue water for some is the livestock pond. Other's....half way across the Big Ponds. Perspective is everything.

RichH · Feb 3, 2011

I really disagree with the crew being the most important aspect... as when you and the crew are 'beyond' tired or ill, etc. the 'blue water' boat should to be expected to be able to withstand all the errors of seamanship --- all by itself and no matter the sea-state.

Bill Roosa · Feb 4, 2011

I always thought it was a team effort RichH, boat and crew. So saying the captain and crew did some dumb things and now are overtired or just got ill and the boat should just take care of them is placing a lot of trust on the boat. Perhaps they should summon what is left of their strength and get the boat into a safe hove-to configuration and not just cast 3 sheets to the wind and hope for the best.

A captain and crew that don't have a clue what they are doing on the world’s safest boat would still be able to run aground on the rocks in the storm they didn’t see coming and kill everybody.
A boat that has suffered a whale strike and lost its rudder and mast but has a competent crew can still make it back to shore.

Given these two extremes it is clearly not the boat that is going to save you. A sturdy boat may entice you to take a more risky passage and allow your skill level to get away with it. (That’s how you get skilled by the way, metered risk taking) But in the end it is the decisions of the captain and crew that make the difference. Deciding that the boat is not sturdy enough to make that passage given the weather forecast, deciding that you really don’t NEED GPS as all the charts are pre-GPS anyway and all it does is raise the stress level onboard, deciding to take that long passage with half stores and no spares, deciding to not reef…… All the decisions you make. These lead to consequences that the boat and crew have to be able to handle. A stronger boat allows you to make some bad decisions and live. A smarter captain and crew never put their boat in those bad situations and know how to correctly handle the situations that do come up (and could get by with a weaker boat!!!)

So what is a blue water boat? Kinda a dumb question cause you didn’t tell me what kind of captain and crew are going to be on board

RON20406 · Feb 4, 2011

RichH said:
I really disagree with the crew being the most important aspect... as when you and the crew are 'beyond' tired or ill, etc. the 'blue water' boat should to be expected to be able to withstand all the errors of seamanship --- all by itself and no matter the sea-state.

With all due respect to RichH and with no malice intended, but rather an honest straightforward comment, this is the most absurd response I have ever heard that the boat is more important than the crew. Have you ever heard of a guy named Bligh? You think he had a bluewater boat?

RichH · Feb 4, 2011

Sorry to disappoint you all. But after many many thousands of sea miles and sailing through F9-10 for many hours on end, there may come a time when you must simply go below and leave the boat (properly set up, of course) to seek its own way because its just too damn dangerous and quickly 'overly-tiring' to be on deck, etc.

When you notice that the hull is oil-can flexing, and the bulkheads are slipping and loudly creaking because they weren't properly 'tabbed-in' or have broken loose or were 'put into cockamamie - flanges' etc (Pearsons!), the cockpit is becoming filled every few minutes, the hull-deck joint is beginning to open and ship water ... and youre just too damn beat up and too 'over-tired' to continue ... then youll appreciate the bombproof built boat that can take care of itself ..... as you rapidly go up and down like being inside a nervous elevator in a 40 ft. shaft. A purpose built 'blue water' boat is designed to do this, a 'coastal boat' is simply going to 'come apart' in 'terminal' condition, and no matter how 'experienced' you think you are.

I met a fellow a few years ago in the Florida Keys who had sailed in from San Diego in a Catalina 30. He had left Panama enroute to Trinidad, got into a succession of 'howlers' that blew him off course, for 10-14 days!!!!!! .... just missing Jamaica when the next storm then blew him back towards Mexico, again changed its direction, blew him through the Yucatan Channel and then on to Florida. The boat was almost totally destroyed, cracks in the hull, bulkheads totally loose, deck joint shot, splits in the deck to coachroof joint --- a sieve that all he could do during that whole time was to sleep and to bail with a bucket. I dont care how experienced you are when a 'flimsy' boat comes apart .... when you chose the WRONG boat to go 'ocean saiilng'.