Just what is blue water? Serious question.

MrUnix · Feb 1, 2011

Blue water is typically used to describe the open ocean. In maritime geography, it is the area beyond the 'green water' zone surrounding land masses and out into the deep seas. Here is a picture from wikipedia:

As for boat capabilities required for your plans, I'll leave that to other 'blue water' sailors who can better advise

Cheers,
Brad

Don S/V ILLusion · Feb 1, 2011

Always an interesting topic to debate but it typically comes down to opinions vary.

About the only generality I've ever heard which has merit is the one that goes like this:
The limiting factor isn't the boat; it's the crew.

Hunters, Catalinas, Beneteaus, etc... all have been successfully sailed circumnavigations; the failures have almost always been due to the crew's limitations.
Submerged objects, whale attacks, broken equipment, storm damage, coral groundings, etc... happen regardless of the nameplate.

Ron20324 · Feb 1, 2011

One could say theat blue water is anything beyond the ColRegs lines.

Ed Schenck · Feb 1, 2011

And however you go to Columbia that will qualify as "blue water". Just Florida to the Abacos is a "blue water" crossing. To me, when we talk about a "blue water" boat, it means a boat that can handle the conditions if that weather window doesn't work out. People wait for weeks for the right weather to sail sixty miles to the islands. Is it because they were told their boat is a "coastal cruiser"? More likely it is just being smart and the Island Packets are anchored right there with the Catalinas.

Sumner · Feb 1, 2011

I might be wrong, but I'm thinking you are trying to find out what you should look for in a boat to make the trip you have in your head. A boat that isn't just a boat that can make the trip or has, but one that under all but the most severe circumstances, such as a hurricane, can make the trip time and again safely.

Of course maybe that isn't what you are interested in, but I'm hoping that some guidelines that would address the above come up.

We have been looking also and so far about the smallest boat that would be in our price range, under $50,000, and that we could find ready to make such a trip outfitted as bought and with a number of them out there to choose from is an Endeavour 37.

We also like the Cat. 34 as it is in the price range and there are lots of them out there, but don't think it is the open water boat that the Endeavor is.

Good luck with your adventures,

Sum

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Don S/V ILLusion · Feb 1, 2011

Sumner said:
I might be wrong, but I'm thinking you are trying to find out what you should look for in a boat to make the trip you have in your head. A boat that isn't just a boat that can make the trip or has, but one that under all but the most severe circumstances, hurricane, can make the trip time and again safely.

In a hurricane, any boat can broach, pitch pole or simply sink by being beaten to death. If anyone is looking for a boat which can handle such conditions safely "time and again", I would remind you of:
a. the Titanic, and
v. the Mistral (boat survived, crew not so much)

Steve Dion · Feb 1, 2011

Here is an opinion! ....and we know that everyone has one.

http://www.callipygia600.com/callnugget/allcruising/boatfind.htm

Roy10289 · Feb 1, 2011

It is not a difficult thing to know. Sail offshore from the NE coast of the US for about 150 miles and look at the water. It is very very blue...

Buck420 · Feb 1, 2011

Robert,

"Here is my question to you guys......what really is blue water?"

It's exactly what it says ... water out in the open ocean is a deep blue color. Inshore, water is a green color.
How far off shore this transition occurs depends on the the submarine geography and characteristics of a particular coastline.
In areas like south Florida where the water depth drops off to great depths within a few miles of the beach, you will be in "blue water" almost as soon as you leave an inlet. Off large rivers or where the water depth drops off slowly, you may not get out of coastal "green water" for many miles offshore.
But, once you are well away from any coast, you'll know "blue water" when you see it and are sailing in it.

Sailm8 · Feb 1, 2011

My definition of bluewater is based upon my ability to be rescued or assisted by a 3rd party. It is the point where assistance in an emergency will not be available to me in the next few hours after I declare an emergency. Bluewater seems to be shrinking with the advent of EPIB, SSB and the lot. It is the point where my fate rests in my own hands and where help may take several days to arrive. Survival would be up to my preparation and skills along with the substance of my vessel.

While crossing the Gulf Stream may be intimidating, it is a far cry from the Southern ocean in its remoteness from rescue. For some sailors a Gulf Stream crossing maybe considered Bluewater but to my definition, the availablity of rescue or assistance must be factored into any definition.

Tim R. · Feb 1, 2011

I will add my thoughts. To me part of the "blue water boat" definition includes comfort in a seaway. Comfort means trusting that your boat can handle the conditions, floating objects, reefs, waves, etc. Your mind will be more comfortable. Comfort also means that the boat has an easy motion in offshore conditions.

Some boats can take more hits than others and every skipper knows what his boat can take and it will affect his comfort level when things get nasty. Yes, it is true that the crew will give up before most boats but I bet that seasoned skippers are more likely to give up early in a boat they do not trust.

My Ericson 35-3 was a great coastal cruiser but did flex a bit and I was not comfortable in high wind conditions regardless of the new standing rigging and sails. It also have a horrible motion downwind in any waves over 3 ft. No creaking though, unlike some popular charter boats I have sailed.

My Caliber is solid. I have pushed her in some high winds and she felt rock steady and fast. Dipping the rail in the Ericson was easy. Not so with the Caliber. With her cutter rig she has the right sail combinations for most all conditions.

All you need to do is sail different boats in various conditions and you will know what I mean.

Bill Roosa · Feb 1, 2011

If you have to ask then you should not be going there. As Don said, it is the crew not the boat that determines the ultimate capabilities of the mix.
I'd recommend a LONG shakedown cruise in protected waters till you don't feel the need to ask such questions anymore. Truth is you will be relying on yourself and your crew to keep yourselves alive. If you have any question about whether you (or your crew) are up to this then you probably are not. Course reality and crisis have a way of bringing out the best (and worst) in a captain and crew.

David in Sandusky · Feb 1, 2011

To far from port to seek shelter

For me, Blue Water means being too far from port to seek shelter. If bad conditions come, you and your boat have to ride it out, rather than heading for the shelter of land. If pressed, I'd say more than a day or two from a shore. It also means that you plan to spend weeks (well, at least one) on the boat until landfall.

Your plans sound like coastal cruising to me.

Stu Jackson · Feb 1, 2011

Add to these good posts:

Beyond (pun intended) the color of the water, it's the condition and construction characteristics of the boat AND it's systems. Battery hold downs are one good example.

Good examples of the issues that need to be addressed are included in the first half of Nigel Calder's Cruising Handbook, which you can look at at a local West Marine store.

Once you're offshore longer than say a daysail back to a harbor, you're looking at more significant issues with electrical power storage and production, water tankage and/or production, beefier anchoring systems, and safe sea berths for the crew, to name just a few items.

Many "production" boats have done safe bluewater sailing, most all have been significantly modified in one way or another regarding these issues, before they left.

A friend sailed his C34 from Vancouver, BC, down to Mexico. Although mostly coastal cruising, he did review all of his boat systems quite carefully before he left.

His reports on what he did to his 1988 production boat are here:

http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5270.0.html

Joe · Feb 1, 2011

Blue water boats are designed for long, unassisted passages across an open ocean. I would consider a passage over three days to be "bluewater". New York to Bermuda would be a blue water passage, Miami to Bimini.... not. Sailing from SF to Hawaii is blue water. Sailing out and around Catalina from San Pedro, not. If you can call vessel assist.... you're coastal. If the Chilean coast guard responds to your SOS, you're bluewater.

Steve's link is excellent...... but ask Tania Aebi (read "Maiden Voyage") if she had all that stuff... her little Contessa 26 was certainly bluewater capable but had very little of the equipment and features mentioned in the John Vigor article. What it did have was solid glass hull and deck, full keel, oversize rigging chainplated to the hull.

RichH · Feb 1, 2011

Joe's explanation is the best.

There are structural/strength requirements and built-in 'redundancies' for a 'blue water' boat that make it 'safer' than a boat used for island hopping / coastal sailing.
A blue water designed boat is typically 3 (or more) times as 'strong' as it needs to be, while a 'coastal' boat will be typically only 2x as strong as it needs to be for the worst conditions. This '3 times as strong' is based on centuries of historical data ... those that are less strong typically dont make it 'on the average' for long passagemaking without repair or rebuild enroute, etc..

The features of 'blue water' boat will typically have:
• very strong and usually very small 'windows' or portlight to survive the rigors of the full weight of a boarding wave,
• a companionway that is really strong and can survive a large boarding wave that crashes over the stern.
• rapidly draining cockpit and usually a quite small cockpit so that if (or rather when) the boat becomes 'pooped' the small cockpit wont ship a LOT of water and will 'clear'/drain rapidly .... and small enough so that you dont get 'washed around' in the cockpit. A large water filled cockpit can severely 'squat' the stern, making your stern lower in the water & even more vulnerable for the 'next' boarding wave.
• a large 'bridge deck' to prevent/lessen down-flooding from the cockpit to 'down below'
• Oversized or beefed-up rigging, chainplates, etc.
• A sail plan that can be easily reefed, and with 'multiple' reef points. Cutter rigs and Solent rigs seem to be the current 'favored' or preferred for long distance cruisers.
• Triple stitched and otherwise reinforced sails ... possibly will be set up with a separate mast track for a 'trysail'.
• A very strong hull, topsides, deck, coachroof and hull to deck joint.
• a boat that is 'SEA-KINDLY' - a boat with a gentle motion when in a large sea-state; not a lightweight 'vomit comet' whose fast 'roll period' will loosen dental fillings from your teeth .... a boat that wont tired you out after a few days sailing. More of a deeper v shape to the hull to prevent 'slamming' and 'pounding' as with the 'flattish' bottom as is found on the modern 'production type' boats.
• a boat that has 'stowage' capacity and wont sink deeply beyond the normal waterline when loaded; not a 'weekend' design.
• A boat that has adequate 'handholds' throughout the inside (and outside) the boat. This will prevent being 'slammed' against a hull side, etc. in a heavy seaway. Look for hand holds that are accessible so you dont have to let go of one to reach the next .... all the way through the boat. Most of the modern 'production' boats seem to omit this vital attribute.
• Large capacity tankage - fuel & water.
• NO 'pullman berths', yet berths that can be rigged with leecloths - to keep you in one place when the weather is 'rough'

A blue water boat will be built to withstand just about whatever the weather gods may bring .... when you cant anchor for the night or run/scurry into a close-by 'port'.

For 'blue water' boats seek out those designers who specialize in such boats: Robert Perry, Bob Harris, Bill Creighlock, Rob Ladd, Peter Beeldsnijder, Petersen, etc. etc. and their boats: Baba, Tashiba, Oyster, Tayana, Valiant, Passport, Pacific Seacraft, Amel, Hallberg, Morris, etc. etc. etc. etc. .... all 'go anywhere' boats with 'proven' passage-making histories. Let these design characteristics influence your choice of the 'lesser' and less seaworthy designs.

A 'coastal' boat can easily sail from Newfoundland, all the way down the East coast to Trinidad by 'island hopping' by waiting for the correct 'weather windows'. IF you want to go to Central or South America from Fla, etc (across the Lower Gulf, the Yucatan Channel, and the Western Caribb.) ... you really should have a 'blue water' boat, a 'sea-kindly' boat not a 'flat-bottomed cork' that is going to beat you up and thoroughly 'tire you out' when the weather turns 'ugly'.

vikki0730 · Feb 1, 2011

Robert, The average blue water cruiser sails on a boat between 30-40 feet. Friends of ours sailed from NY Harbor to Australia on a 32 ft steel hull bathtub shaped boat. Go with your gut. If you get on a boat and it feels solid it's a decent pick. If it feels flimsy...maybe you want to re-consider. My husband and I live and sail on a Sabre426...we will break before this boat does! This fall we were in a mere 8 foot sea on the bow and the boat was slamming up and down...the sound was horrific but we never doubted the boat and she was just fine. We are blue water rated and our mast can be 10 degrees under water and we will still right ourselves (if there is no sail being dragged down by the water). Anything can happen to any boat at any time...parts break, come loose etc. Whatever boat you get make sure you learn the boat, have spare parts and the appropriate safety equipment including an EPIRB, single side band or sat phone, life raft, harnesses and jack lines. Boats can be replaced...lives can't

vikki0730 · Feb 1, 2011

agreed! Hubby and I sail alone. On a passage we each have to trust the other at the helm while the other sleeps. That means we must both know certain things about the boat, the equipment and the area we are in...not just how to watch and steer but how to use the radar, gps/plotter, account and correct for drift, plot a chart on paper, keep a log, watch for upcoming weather, change or reef sail before necessary and know when something just doesn't feel or sound right etc. My husband was the experienced sailor. I have been sailing 8 years now. I was never more proud of myself when my husband trusted me enough (it took years) to go to bed! Also, remember...every trip is different...every port is different. There is a lot of knowledge to collect.

Ray Bowles · Feb 1, 2011

Steve Dion posted a very good list of features that most "blue water boats" might have. When we left land and spend close to 3 years sailing our 1990 Island Packet 38 it was a true "blue water boat" that had crossed the Atlantic twice. This was a boat that would bring you back if you were worthy of her abilities.
Boats are easy to find that can do more than what's needed to cross anything. Sailors are fewer.
Learn the basics of sail on a well found boat in the range of 23 to 30 feet.
Learn the rules and regulations of coastal sailing and Coast Guard regulations.
Learn sail selection and uses and ranges for each.
Be able to sail that first boat in all ranges of wind and seas to the limit of its size.

Now buy that bigger boat, fit her out as YOU want but include all safety gear. Even at the expence of that newer RIB dingy or flat screen TV.
Learn to sail her and get the hell out of Dodge.
Start NOW. Maria and I wish you well because it is easier than you think. You just need to start.
The Gulf Stream off the Florida east coast is "Blue Water."