Just a bit too much heel and helm

FDL S2 · Sep 26, 2023

danstanford said:
Interesting. My gut instinct would be to have the vang off upwind so I could dump the mainsheet (or at least ease) to add some twist in the puffs/gusts. If you think about the first action you need to take in a broach under a kite it is to dump the vang to take pressure out of the top of the main.
It is hard to tell but it looks like they have more twist in both the main and jib.

Like I said-they are better sailors. This was right after a big gust and I dumped the main but hadn’t touched the jib yet.

FDL S2 · Sep 26, 2023

danstanford said:
Sure hope it didn't sound like I was criticizing your choices, these various approaches fascinate me. Always trying to learn.

Not at all! I am always trying to learn too, part of the reason for posting the picture was to get others opinions and how to do it better in the future. You learn more from mistakes than successes.
We race Thursday nights and usually sail around for a little while after the race. On the post race sail, over a beer, we call ourselves out and talk about what each of us could have done better.

Plus, I think it’s a cool picture.

Don Guillette · Sep 26, 2023

FDL: The picture is interesting from a sail trim standpoint. The trim on both boats appears to be the same before the gust. I don't know what the Catalina did but we know what you did and I think you're more ahead of the game because, as opposed to most sailors, you're trying to improve by looking at what you could have done differently or in addition. The engine on your boat and the Catalina is the jib and your jib (engine) is bigger than his. It appears you didn't ease the jib - it looks like he didn't either. Additionally, with the vang down hard you had no twist in the main so it was drawing top to bottom. Normally, all you would have had to do was drop the traveler but due to the strength of the gust you had to do a few more things.

How many people are on your crew?

FDL S2 · Sep 27, 2023

Don Guillette said:
FDL: The picture is interesting from a sail trim standpoint. The trim on both boats appears to be the same before the gust. I don't know what the Catalina did but we know what you did and I think you're more ahead of the game because, as opposed to most sailors, you're trying to improve by looking at what you could have done differently or in addition. The engine on your boat and the Catalina is the jib and your jib (engine) is bigger than his. It appears you didn't ease the jib - it looks like he didn't either. Additionally, with the vang down hard you had no twist in the main so it was drawing top to bottom. Normally, all you would have had to do was drop the traveler but due to the strength of the gust you had to do a few more things.

How many people are on your crew?

Don, I was singlehanded. After I got past the oh crap moment, I eased the jib and turned down. This flattened the boat out a little and I was able to finish the race on a couple much less aggressive tacks to the finish.

Don Guillette · Sep 27, 2023

FDL: Wow, I'll bet that was a "oh crap moment" BUT if it happens again I'll bet you'll know exactly what to do. It's a hard way to learn but very effective as you don't forget it. Even in a normal turn the main acts like a big barn door that wants to keep you going straight and has to be eased. Add a big gust and you're in for a wild ride. Maybe it was a good thing you were alone - if it was my boat and my wife was with me I'd never hear the end of it and I'd be sailing alone often.

Years ago, when I was trying to figure out sail trim, I thought being on a race boat would be a good way to learn (I don't think it is). All I could find was a boat with a pick up crew and none of us knew anything. The boat owner bought a new spinnaker and this race out of LA, Ca harbor turned on a sea marker. I casually mentioned to the skipper that all the boat were going wide of the mark. He just kept plowing ahead. What the other boats were avoiding is it gets shallow around this marker and the seas pick up. I was standing in the hatchway under the traveler when all of a sudden the boats goes over and I'm looking directly down at the water. No one knew what to do and the wind changes and the sail fills and I'm looking down at the water on the other side. Just then the new sail rips from top to bottom. I was never so happy to see anything like that happen. I never sailed with them again.

The point of the above is "dangerous things" happen on sailboats such as stays and mast breaking plus other stuff and there no time to look up in a book or a google search a solution - you have to know immediately. Most sailors don't bother pre planning for common problems

FDL S2 · Sep 27, 2023

Don Guillette said:
FDL: Wow, I'll bet that was a "oh crap moment" BUT if it happens again I'll bet you'll know exactly what to do. It's a hard way to learn but very effective as you don't forget it. Even in a normal turn the main acts like a big barn door that wants to keep you going straight and has to be eased. Add a big gust and you're in for a wild ride. Maybe it was a good thing you were alone - if it was my boat and my wife was with me I'd never hear the end of it and I'd be sailing alone often.

Years ago, when I was trying to figure out sail trim, I thought being on a race boat would be a good way to learn (I don't think it is). All I could find was a boat with a pick up crew and none of us knew anything. The boat owner bought a new spinnaker and this race out of LA, Ca harbor turned on a sea marker. I casually mentioned to the skipper that all the boat were going wide of the mark. He just kept plowing ahead. What the other boats were avoiding is it gets shallow around this marker and the seas pick up. I was standing in the hatchway under the traveler when all of a sudden the boats goes over and I'm looking directly down at the water. No one knew what to do and the wind changes and the sail fills and I'm looking down at the water on the other side. Just then the new sail rips from top to bottom. I was never so happy to see anything like that happen. I never sailed with them again.

The point of the above is "dangerous things" happen on sailboats such as stays and mast breaking plus other stuff and there no time to look up in a book or a google search a solution - you have to know immediately. Most sailors don't bother pre planning for common problems

I sail singlehanded more than I do with crew, I generally only have crew for our Thursday races. My crew and I are allowed experienced sailors and we have run into all types of conditions over the years, so the “oh crap” moments generate a practiced or thought out reaction rather than panic. We have a rule that if the weather is nasty (rain, high winds, big waves,etc) any of us can call it a day no questions asked, oddly enough no one ever does….

I have sailed with people who scream and yell when there is any adversity and all it seems to do is make inexperienced people scared and experienced people never want to sail with them again and nobody learns a damn thing.

kappykaplan · Sep 27, 2023

FDL S2 said:
I have sailed with people who scream and yell when there is any adversity and all it seems to do is make inexperienced people scared and experienced people never want to sail with them again and nobody learns a damn thing.

FDL S2 · Sep 27, 2023

danstanford said:
I suppose the location of the main sheet and traveler have a big impact on this question. I have owned 2 boats where adjusting either of these in a gust was impractical due to their location in front of the companionway. I am not sure about this Catalina but both of these controls are at my feet/finger tips on my J boat and it makes gust control so much easier. It is for this reason that my original post was for the best base trim setting for these wind conditions not dealing with gusts.

I am enjoying the conversation and wish only for Jackdaw's presence!

I have mid boom sheeting so the main sheet and traveler are in the cockpit in front of the companionway-you can see half of it below. The main sheet and traveler lines are long enough that I can adjust them from anywhere in the cockpit while holding the tiller. The vang line hangs above the cabin-the white line hanging down on the left of the picture. I can reach it and control the tiller if I have the tiller extension attached otherwise I have to let go of the tiller for a second to tighten or ease it.

jssailem · Sep 27, 2023

My observation of the two boats in the image.
The forward boat has both sails drawing, powering the boat. The boat took the gust and heeled hard but because the sails are more balanced the boat is still driving forward. Look at the bow as it deals with the chop. Look at the shape of the sails. The main shows me upper air twist. Look at the cord of the sail in the lower third. The draft looks to be within 3 or so feet of the mast.

When I say balanced in this image I see the main applying force to cause heel addressed by upper sail twist and rotation force trying to push the bow to windward. This is balanced by the smaller jibe that is drawing and attempting to force the bow down to the lee. Adjusting the jib sheet block forward will open-up the upper portion of the jib leach dumping some of the gust to help balance the boat. Even though heeled the boat still appears to be driven forward.

On the second boat the there is less balance. The main has a 40%air bubble causing drag in the main. The crew appear to be relying on the large Genoa to provide power. The leach of the fore sail appears taut no twist. The main sheet appears released to mitigate heel but is causing drag. It looks to me as the main was used to level the boat. I suspect the rudder is also being used to try and keep the boat on course but is not amid ships so also causing drag.

The challenge is how to address these variables. For me drag is the enemy. To do that in gusty conditions I’d go with a smaller foresail. Use twist of the upper sail to balance the sails. Practice adjusting the sail trim (moving the jib blocks, traveler, main sheet even reefing adjustments) in 15-25 knots till I understand my boat’s abilities to sail forward with the rudder in a neutral position (no rudder drag). If you are constantly fighting weather and lee helm, you might as well attach a couple lines to the stern and tie on some big buckets. Rudder drag is stepping on the breaks.

My practice would be going to windward and using each of the sails alone till achieved the goal of boat moving forward, rudder nearly neutral, sails trimmed for best speed. Then combine both sails to achieve the optimum speed, heel, and neutral rudder. Record the performance and the trim required. Mark the location of the jib sheet blocks, the traveler lines and positions. The boom angle and rudder angle. Soon you and crew will begin to get the feel of the boat and the way the rigging needs to be set. With that the yelling will fade and crew will volunteer to join.

Scott T-Bird · Oct 18, 2023

I echo what John just said above, but have a few additional comments in line with that. Being single-handed, you weren't able to ease the genoa at a moment's notice and all you could do was dump the main. You also weren't able to adjust the genoa's twist, either. For that reason, and because you had a larger genoa, your mainsail is backwinded and dragging. I'm surprised you are still on your feet with winds at 20 gusting to 25. In fact, maybe it was just momentarily as the photo was taken, but you are more upright than the Catalina. You also appear to be a little windward, so your position was pretty good right at that moment. I'll suggest that some of your problem was simply bad luck as the winds increased going around that last leeward mark (were you gaining going downwind? ... it wouldn't surprise me if you were). There is not much you can do to improve your position when the wind decides to make you over-canvased. I'd be happy to just hold your position. The Catalina (with crew I presume), was simply better able to adapt readily to the conditions, and kept the boat driving with a smaller genoa and by easing it in gusts. You probably could have improved your hand by having the vang off for the upwind leg. That would have helped control the main more effectively as a single-hander. But I think the wind conspired against you at that point and that was beyond your control.