Just a bit too much heel and helm

capta · Sep 22, 2023

I'm not sure what edge you are talking about, but you certainly make a lot more leeway when sailing on your beam ends (topsides), rather than closer to her designed heeling angle. The simplest way to correct for that problem is to reduce sail, either by reefing the main, head sail or both.

JRacer · Sep 22, 2023

Or, keep the main sheeted in to your upwind setting and play the traveller. Ease it to leeward in the puffs and back up in the lulls. Or, set the traveller to center the boom and play the mainsheet, off in the puffs and in on the lulls. Can also tighten the backstay to flatten the main. When driving the J/24, I was always adjusting these three controls.

shemandr · Sep 22, 2023

Do you have crew hiking out?
I don't know the J 88 but many of the J line are designed to be sailed with meat on the rail. If you don't have the bodies you may feel the boat is tender. Absent the weight, you need to depower - which you already know.
At first you need to flatten the sails. When that is not working I would keep the leech closed and play the traveller until that doesn't work anymore. When you consistently have the traveller down and you are luffing to keep the boat on its feet, I would suggest bringing the traveller up in combination with easing the main sheet to open the leech. The traveller will the again become effective in reducing heel. As JRacer said, an alternative is to play the main sheet in gusts and lulls. Sometimes you need both. After that it's a reef.
Hopefully we all agree that sailing any boat on its ears isn't fast or pointy. Dragging the rudder slows the boat and slow doesn't point. Boatspeed moves the apparent wind aft allowing you to sail in a "lift" i.e. closer to the wind.
Please don't show me vectors - my last foray into geometry was a disaster

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rgranger · Sep 22, 2023

danstanford said:
Watching a North racing trim video they comment that playing the traveler is best in this situation other than a fast easily driven boat where you should use the main sheet instead. I did not hear a rationale for that perspective nor can I divine one from my knowledge.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but... I believe using the traveler to bring the sheet to windward and then paying out the main will induce more twist up high on your main, and that will spill more wind up high...and reduce your heeling moment... and allow you to stay on your feet and that will reduce leeway.

dlochner · Sep 23, 2023

On J boats, flat is always fastest. That sometimes means giving up a degree or two of pointing to keep the boat flat and the keel working. In addition to reducing leeway the keel and rudder provide lift and are more effective the more vertical they are.

Get the crew weight out and forward near the chain plates when the wind pipes up. (Yes it is wet up there!)

On the 24, 30, and 35 I used to crew on we played the mainsheet in the puffs and if things got out of control we'd blow the vang. You might play around with upwind vanging too.

Don Guillette · Sep 24, 2023

danstanford said:
We have a reasonably tender boat that does not mind being pressed on but I would like to have a process to come back from the edge going up wind. We have a couple of boats in our fleet that are really close winded so I am always trying to keep the upper leach closed for height and my main trimmer keeps easing the mainsheet to lower the tiller a bit. We are around our target of 6-6.5 knots of boat speed but are unable to track leeway.
What would you do to find the best happy medium? In these conditions we would have the backstay on and be easing in the puffs but I am unsure if we should be twisting off the main and jib to flatten the heel or easing the traveler as needed to flatten her out 20 degrees or so of heel?

Dan: Your 3rd option is the correct one and most efficient - ease the traveler until the boat comes back on it's feet. When the puff passes return the traveler to it's original position. The advantage to using the traveler is the SET of the sail does not change. The secondary control for ANGLE OF ATTACK adjustment is the mainsheet but when you use the mainsheet you're also changing TWIST and DRAFT POSITION - neither of which you need to mess with at this point. All you're doing with the backstay is moving the draft position which does nothing in the condition you're dealing with. The primary control for TWIST is the boom vang. The secondary is the mainsheet but again with the mainsheet you're moving other things that you don't need to.

Try my suggestion next time you encounter this situation.

Do you have my SAIL TRIM CHART?

JRacer · Sep 25, 2023

On the 24, we would "vang-sheet" in puffy conditions. We set the vang on hard (whatever was good for the current "normal" wind conditions) then use the mainsheet to dump the excess power in the puffs. The advantage of this is that having the vang on hard keeps the trim of the main in place while easing (dumping) the main would reduce the load and keep the boat on its feet. With the vang on hard, easing the mainsheet doesn't let the main twist off at the top. When the puff subsides, you pull the mainsheet back in and you are again trimmed for the upwind condition in the current "normal" wind conditions. Very often, the out and back in on the mainsheet was done over a relatively short period of time in a "blaster" puff, seconds, not minutes. Also, having the vang on hard keeps the main flatter because it incdces some mast bend.

dlochner · Sep 25, 2023

This discussion has been interesting and as usual with boats, shows there is more than one way to skin a cat.

The key in puffy conditions is to depower the main to keep the boat from from rounding up and to keep it fall. The ergonomics of the boat and the crew strength are important factors. On some boats, it may be easier and therefore faster to play the main, on others playing the traveller or the vang may work better.

In the most recent post, @danstanford said he is typically sailing in very light conditions, in those conditions maintaining boat speed is critical even at the expense of loosing pointing ability. In those conditions bearing off to ride the puff and maintain speed will be faster than trying to maintain the course. In light air getting the boat to accelerate is tough, once the boat slows down the AWS will move aft which places the boat in the position of trying to accelerate while sailing a longer course. Better to sail a longer course at speed. The boat's track will be scalloped, which is OK in very light air.

Upwind VMG overrides everything else. VMG is the resultant of SOG, COG and Heading. In light and flukey air SOG should be favored over COG. When the wind pipes up and the boat is sailing at hull speed, then COG should be favored while maintaining SOG.

JRacer · Sep 25, 2023

danstanford said:
Unless I am missing some element, we do this by easing the traveler maintaining main shape. Am I wrong in thinking that whatever downward force on the boom is needed to create the twist profile is the same if provided by the vang or the main sheet? Assuming this is yes, is the idea that the vang will create more mast bend? We certainly use the vang in downwind trim for the reasons you list here.

This question is not related to our common light wind conditions but rather in the 12-15 kt condition.

Yes, you will have similar downward pressure on the leech with the traveller and the vang. Difference is if the main has to be dropped further than you can accomplish with just the traveller then having the vang set such that the leech tension is not eased as the mainsheet is eased will keep the leech tension you want as the boom moves to leeward. Our use of vang-sheeting (quickly out and back in) was generally in higher winds than you refer although it can be used in the mid-range winds if the puffs are sufficient to be overpowering you and the traveler drop is insufficient. backstay will also flatten the main and in mid-range can be a good control to soften the effects of a "minor" puff. Add some backstay (induce mast bend) as the puff hits and back it off when the puff is gone.

dlochner · Sep 25, 2023

danstanford said:
Am I wrong in thinking that whatever downward force on the boom is needed to create the twist profile is the same if provided by the vang or the main sheet?

It will depend on where the main is sheeted. The vang offers more upwind downward force on end of boom sheeting than mid boom sheeting.

JRacer · Sep 25, 2023

dlochner said:
It will depend on where the main is sheeted. The vang offers more upwind downward force on end of boom sheeting than mid boom sheeting.

J/88 mainsheet is end of boom.

Apex · Sep 25, 2023

great info and feedback in here folks.
play the traveler, ayup.....vang sheeting I have not tried, but yes also. Everything else in response I can't argue with either. The PO and the main trimmer on that boat seem to have a good knowledge of the trim in fine detail.
@danstanford
What would you do to find the best happy medium? In these conditions we would have the backstay on and be easing in the puffs but I am unsure if we should be twisting off the main and jib to flatten the heel or easing the traveler as needed to flatten her out 20 degrees or so of heel? You are already easing main for the puffs: so try traveler adjust and see how you fair. Are you out early prior to the race with a speed partner setting up the rig, and recording what the conditions are such as oscillations .vs. clocking/backing? in GENERAL, it is typically a faster trimming control, so more able to manage and keep up with quick changes. Setup your rig, halyard tensions, cunningham, outhaul and vang/mainsheet for the general conditions and lulls, then look for and predict the puffs. Flat-ish is fast

for MY boat, which is a NON-racer, my main is blown out. So while a new one is coming soon I too have to ease and backwind the main so the jib has a proper slot. Outhaul and Cunningham are crucial to help with my balance.

Don Guillette · Sep 25, 2023

danstanford said:
Thanks Don, and I do have the Sail Trim Chart.

Was my free QUICK REFERENCE included? With all the charts purchased through my web site I include the quick reference which displays the "4 elements of sail trim" and indicates which sail trim control for the main & jib adjusts each element and tells you which way to push or pull the control to obtain the setting you desire.

JRacer · Sep 25, 2023

PS, I would prefer 10 and not more than 15 degrees of heel vs 20. That's what we would shoot for on the J24. Flat is Fast!

FDL S2 · Sep 25, 2023

JRacer said:
On the 24, we would "vang-sheet" in puffy conditions. We set the vang on hard (whatever was good for the current "normal" wind conditions) then use the mainsheet to dump the excess power in the puffs. The advantage of this is that having the vang on hard keeps the trim of the main in place while easing (dumping) the main would reduce the load and keep the boat on its feet. With the vang on hard, easing the mainsheet doesn't let the main twist off at the top. When the puff subsides, you pull the mainsheet back in and you are again trimmed for the upwind condition in the current "normal" wind conditions. Very often, the out and back in on the mainsheet was done over a relatively short period of time in a "blaster" puff, seconds, not minutes. Also, having the vang on hard keeps the main flatter because it incdces some mast bend.

I had something like this happen in a race Saturday. We started with winds12 gusting to 15. About 1/4 mile after another boat and I rounded the last leeward mark the wind shot up to 20 with gusts to 25.
The picture below was taken right after a gust. You can see we both have our mainsails eased-I’m in the rear boat and I had the vang down hard and the main sheet and traveler were both dumped.
The Catalina seemed to handle it better. I think the reasons are:
1. They are better sailors and do great in heavy wind.
2. They have a smaller jib (110, mine is a 135),
3. A Catalina 270 is a lot heavier than an S2 7.3.

They finished 3rd and I was a ways back in 4th.