Joining solar panel

[Jeff Bole]

two controllers interfere

The problem is that the AirX has its own internal charge controller, and that two controllers won't necessarily play well together.At the time of my issue (some years ago), I called www.realgoods.com to see about a charge controller that would work. They were not aware of a controller that would feed the actual battery voltage back to the AirX. Maybe there is something now that does...I suppose that one could adjust the AirX so that it is putting out its full output all of the time, relying on the external charge controller to regulate the power down to what the batteries actually need. But this may burn out the AirX, since excess power won't have anywhere to go.To anyone interested, I highly recommend buying the Real Goods catalog. They call it a sourcebook, and it is so full of information that I've seen it on the shelves at libraries...P.S. My AirX had three wires: +, -, ground.

 

[Jeff Bole]

two controllers interfere

The problem is that the AirX has its own internal charge controller, and that two controllers won't necessarily play well together.At the time of my issue (some years ago), I called www.realgoods.com to see about a charge controller that would work. They were not aware of a controller that would feed the actual battery voltage back to the AirX. Maybe there is something now that does...I suppose that one could adjust the AirX so that it is putting out its full output all of the time, relying on the external charge controller to regulate the power down to what the batteries actually need. But this may burn out the AirX, since excess power won't have anywhere to go.To anyone interested, I highly recommend buying the Real Goods catalog. They call it a sourcebook, and it is so full of information that I've seen it on the shelves at libraries...P.S. My AirX had three wires: +, -, ground.

 

[Bil Thomas]

RV Power control

http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/pdf/SB50ManualF.pdfpage 16. This is for the Solar boost 50. Which is a 50 AMP control box.This controller has a flexibly setup and has taken very good care of us. Porbably 95% of power generation goes through this box.

 

[Bil Thomas]

RV Power control

http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/pdf/SB50ManualF.pdfpage 16. This is for the Solar boost 50. Which is a 50 AMP control box.This controller has a flexibly setup and has taken very good care of us. Porbably 95% of power generation goes through this box.

 

[Jeff Bole]

How do those controllers work with AirX?

The Flexcharge controllers appear to be made for the 'dumb' wind generators, those being the ones that have no internal regulation and put out the max available power all the time. That type of wind generator uses a 'divert' or dummy load to absorb excess power, which the Flexcharge controllers are programmed to handle.The wiring diagram for the Solar Boost 50 (pg. 10) shows only one input (PV). It also shows leads from Bat+ and Bat- going "to all loads and other charging systems". Where can one wire in the AirX so that it reads true battery voltage, not a voltage influenced by the PV/charger?The AirX's internal charge controller reads the battery voltage and adjusts the current produced by changing the generator's field winding current. If it thinks that the battery is full (by reading a voltage influenced by solar panel input), it turns off the field voltage and the rotor spins freely like a decorative garden windmill. If one wants to stop the spin, it can be electrically braked by the flip of a switch.I would love to find a solution, as I have an AirX sitting here in the shop that I plan on installing before my next cruise. I am prepared to be a switch jockey, but would like an automatic alternative.

 

[Jeff Bole]

How do those controllers work with AirX?

The Flexcharge controllers appear to be made for the 'dumb' wind generators, those being the ones that have no internal regulation and put out the max available power all the time. That type of wind generator uses a 'divert' or dummy load to absorb excess power, which the Flexcharge controllers are programmed to handle.The wiring diagram for the Solar Boost 50 (pg. 10) shows only one input (PV). It also shows leads from Bat+ and Bat- going "to all loads and other charging systems". Where can one wire in the AirX so that it reads true battery voltage, not a voltage influenced by the PV/charger?The AirX's internal charge controller reads the battery voltage and adjusts the current produced by changing the generator's field winding current. If it thinks that the battery is full (by reading a voltage influenced by solar panel input), it turns off the field voltage and the rotor spins freely like a decorative garden windmill. If one wants to stop the spin, it can be electrically braked by the flip of a switch.I would love to find a solution, as I have an AirX sitting here in the shop that I plan on installing before my next cruise. I am prepared to be a switch jockey, but would like an automatic alternative.

 

[ian19147]

Is this possible?

Can you lead the two charging sources (solar & wind) into a single busbar, then install the controller between the busbar and the battery? This way the controller will get the total load from both sources and reduce it, if necessary, or divert the excess to other uses.

 

[ian19147]

Is this possible?

Can you lead the two charging sources (solar & wind) into a single busbar, then install the controller between the busbar and the battery? This way the controller will get the total load from both sources and reduce it, if necessary, or divert the excess to other uses.

 

[Gord May]

more info' requ'd ...

Bill:OK, I admit it - I’m pretty dense, but ...It appears that the (RVPower Products) “Solar Boost 50", could handle inputs from a Wind-Generator, though with significant qualifications (charge source must accept ‘open-circuiting’, & cannot require ‘shunt’ regulation).Nowhere does the manual indicate that it can handle Simultaneous Multiple Inputs (ie: Solar AND Wind). As Jeff indicates, there is provision for only ONE Input.Generally, an Open-Circuited (freewheeling) Wind Generator will quickly burn up, due to overspeed. Most Windpower manufacturers specifically prohibit* the use of external regulators that use “open circuiting”. * ie: Air Marine & Air-X:http://www.windenergy.com/SUPPORT/faq.html#no5http://www.windenergy.com/SUPPORT/downloads.html

 

[Jack Tyler]

Thanks for the comments to date...

...altho' the solutions offered that seem applicable all require the addition of a controller of some kind, which adds a bit of cost. The basic approach seems to be that a controller needs to stand between the solar panel output to the house bank and the wind gen output to the bank, allowing each output to be separately controlled.To answer Phillip's question about a busbar, this was essentially the original set-up. This doesn't work because the voltage present where the two charging inputs are joined, such as a busbar, is raised by the solar panel voltage to a point which affects the controller onboard the AirX wind generator. Note Reudi's reply. Similarly, the reason Bill's approach, apparently suggested by the wind gen mfgr, didn't work is that two 12V batteries, joined in parallel to form a house bank, are only separated at the 12V posts by one thick, probably short cable...essentially the same as a long bus bar. Panel voltage would appear on this cable and be seen by the wind gen.In looking at the schematics, this is also why the Flexcharge units appear unsuitable, as they too join the two (wind and solar) charging inputs before controller operation.Are there any other ideas? If so, please add them; this has been helpful.Jack

 

[Gord May]

Rutland "RWS-"?

Jack:It should not be surprising that the suggested solutions might be slightly complex & a little more costly than a simple “magic’ connection diagram.You are trying to integrate two systems that operate differently, and produce differing output characteristics.The discrete integration of both Wind Generator & Solar PV charging sources, to provide optimal simultaneous battery charging WILL definitely require a sophisticated controller of some sort.Here’s a couple additional options. Unfortunately, Rutland doesn’t provide very much on-line information - but FWIW:Rutland's ‘RWS60' Charge controller (for use with WG501 wind generator) including ammeter, LED voltage level indicator, charge fuse and simple to wire terminals. Input terminals included for solar panel of maximum 30w.http://www.marlec.co.uk/products/prods/rut503.htmRutland’s ‘RWS200' Controller (for use with 913 windcharger) including charge ammeter, dual battery voltage LED's, two battery connection terminals and switch for charging one or two battery banks simultaneously.Input terminals included for solar panel of maximum 50w.http://www.marlec.co.uk/products/prods/rut913.htm

 

[Bil Thomas]

Tough one

Have you tried contactng the manufacture to see what they recommend. I have had contacting various manufacutures with questions.Can hurt

 

[ian19147]

Has anyone looked at this?

Most of this is way over my head, but this might be worth looking at. Different from the Solar Boost 50http://www.blueskyenergyinc.com/pdf/IPN-SB3024description.pdf#search='multiple%20input%20sources%20battery%20charge'

 

[Gord May]

Use a Load Diversion

Jack raises an interesting & complex issue.Ian:Unfortunately, Blue Sky Energy doesn’t provide enough on-line information to accurately assess it’s applicability to the original proposal - combing Wind & Solar input at the SAME time. Combining wind and PhotoVoltaics (actually, EITHER) in hybrid a system is an attractive proposition, due to the daily and seasonal fluctuations of both wind and solar energy resources available. Recalling Jack’s original proposition: “The basic issue is how to deliver - concurrently - DC output from solar panels and a wind generator, without the line voltage of one effecting the other ... how he could alter the set-up without a lot of further complication and components, so that both alternative energy sources can efficiently charge the house bank.”While technically possible, I don’t believe the above criteria to be practical (IMHO).The problem lies with the differing characteristics of Photovoltaic and Wind-Turbine power sources.Solar panels are "passive"electricity producers, generating direct current (DC) electricity required by power storage batteries. They can sometimes(see Note 1) be connected directly to the battery bank without causing harm. Wind generators are "active" electricity producers, which do not produce DC electricity, so a a "recitifier" is used to convert the turbine's output current to DC. In order to prevent damage to the wind turbine, all of the electricity it produces must be "used" in some way.Some turbines have a rectifier built in. In many cases though, the rectifier is supplied as a separate component that must be installed between the wind turbine and the battery. Often, the rectifier is combined with a charge controller into one complete wind turbine control unit.When your batteries need charging current, they provide an electrical load to use the wind turbine's electricity. If the batteries are fully charged, the turbine's output must be "diverted" to another electrical load. A Load Diversion Controller (Shunt Regulator) is a fancy way of saying that when the batteries are fully charged, a load is turned on to consume the extra power from the wind generator. Most times heating elements (resistors, or water/air heating coils) are used because they can draw a constant high amount of power.Some wind turbines have charge control features built-in, diverting their own excess current and allowing it to dissipate as heat through the wind turbine housing or a heat sink. In most turbine systems however, the charge controller is an external unit, and while DC rectifiers are always included as part of a basic wind turbine package, the load diverting controller may not be. More sophisticated charge controllers allow you to use the diverted current for other uses, such as running a water heating coil, a ventilating fan or a space heating system, making the wind generator an even more useful and efficient source of power.12V Water Heating Element (immersion): http://www.svhotwire.com/divert_loads.html12V/120V combo element so that you can use a single heater element for both anchoring out AND for shore power!! One loop is 300W at 12V; the other loop is 500W at 120V .Note:1. Batteries can generally accept an unregulated charging current of about 0.5% of their Amp/Hour capacity - about 5 or 6 watts of solar output per 100 Amp/Hour of battery capacity. FWIW,Gord

 

[Bil Thomas]

More possibilties

I have been hunting around the internet for sources who build multi source controllers and came across EVCraft Green-Power Box: Charger and Power Center Controller:http://www.interlog.com/%7Edgv/solar_prods.htmI have not seen this controller in action but it seems to have set up a switching sytems between multiple sources base on priorities. I understand the priority of keeping the expenses low. But as Gord May stated this is a difficult setup without defaulting to a less efficent but automatic sysetem of letting the PV take priority during peak sun and the windmill taking over when the PV out drops.

 

[Gord May]

Select vs Combine

EVCraft Green-Power Box: Charger and Power Center Controller does NOT combine the outputs from Solar, Wind, and Generator sources - it SELECTS which to connect.This is what several of the previous examples are capable of.I think the best we can hope to achieve, at any reasonable cost, is to select Wind OR Solar, and shunt the unselected source output (if any) to a Diversion Load (water heater element?).

 

[Jack Tyler]

Bill, regrettably that won't work in this case...

If we were dealing with a 'dumb' wind gen (e.g. a Rutland, which has no onboard control circuitry and requires a separate regulator), using a controller that permits multiple inputs would work fine. In fact, there are a number these controllers offering multiple input in the other posts.But we're dealing with an AirX, which has a built-in control feature that even charges the batteries at all 3 stages (bulk, accept & float). And so the problem with these multi-input controllers is that we find the solar & wind gen inputs are joined internally at some point (e.g. after individual fusing) to a common input, *before* the controller begins to manage the load. This means the AirX controller will see the elevated panel voltage, think it is seeing battery voltage, and move to a 'float' stage and not adding to house bank charging.Jack

 

[Gord May]

Turn Air-X Regulator off ?

I believe it’s possible to disable the internal regulator on the ‘Air-X’ wind generator, and use an external diversion regulator.If the external regulator had a N.O. dry contact on the load side (closing when output diverted or absent), this could operate a relay which connects the Solar PV output to the batteries.Hence:Low Batteries & Wind available - Turbine charges batteries - Solar disconnected (open cct ok).Charged Batteries & Wind available - Turbine heats water (diverted) & Solar connected to batteries - must be regulated, if more than 1-2% (‘C÷100' rate) of battery a/h capacity.No wind - No Turbine output, Solar connected to batteries.???

 

[Jack Tyler]

But that also misses the preferred goal...

...because the hope was for both solar and wind to be charging the batteries concurrently, whereas defeating the internal AirX controller will result in diverting solar output when the battery bank needs a charge and one has wind. Amd in truth, that's the common circumstance for a cruising boat (which is the source of the original question): batteries less than 100%, ongoing demand from the boat for DC, and alternative energy sources trying to prevent the crew from needing to run the engine or generator.Boy, this is interesting. I would have thought the answer to be more commonly understood and easier than it's proving to be. Makes me wonder what's going on among all those boats with solar and wind gen systems out in the cruising fleets...Jack

 

[Gord May]

Comparitor Cct

Sounds like we need an electronics guhru - to design us a comparitor circuit.Would compare Turbine output to Battery Voltages,giving us a "net difference".Way beyond my skills ....This has been a good mind teaser, alright.