OK it's winter and I've had a few, but I been thinkin'. Everytime I've used a jackline I've never felt especially safe. There was always slack and even though you won't loose the boat you certainly can end up overboard. Since at night it's seldom if ever spinaker time, why not use the spin halyard for a jackline? You couldn't go off the bow or stern, in theory a crewmate could more easily get you back onboard as not to be pulling straight up, or a winch could but used if necessary, and they're on every boat all the time. OK board, shoot holes in this random beer induced thought.
Jack line
- Thread starter Doug Burton
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Jacklines also have another 'major'problem ......
Jacklines (used on deck) also have a 'trigonometry' problem that makes the system especially weak. Making the jacklines 'taught' between two points puts the attachment points at 'approaching infinite stress' when the lines are pulled perpendicularly. Its a situation that mountaineers, climbers and high angle rescue folks absolutely AVOID at all costs - a "Tyrolean Traverse" is always done with a somewhat slack line for this very reason. When you push or pull a taught line perpendicularly that force is magnified by the magic of trigonometry (dividing by the SIN of the angle, which at low angles would be dividing the magnitude of the applied force by zero which can result in an infinite force to the 'ends' of the jackline. This isnt good especially if the attachment points are weak and have never been 'proof loaded'. To avoid this mathematical 'anomaly' boaters typically apply the jacklines 'loosely' --- like the mountaineers tend to do; and, the resultant 'stretchy-ness' in the system is probably just as vulnerable for you to go over the side as not. The obvious answer is, for jacklines, to use extremely thick webbing or webbing that has been at least doubled, never ever 'single ply webbing' but tubular webbing as a minimum. The use of 'rope' is just as bad because with 'rope' lying on the deck you can easily get the rope underfoot and when your body weight preses down the rope can be like stepping on a ball bearing roller .... you can fall quick and hard. My jacklines are thick tubular webbing, they are somewhat 'slack' (to avoid the trigonometry problem) and I use a VERY short tether (tether has an added 'clip') so that the attachment between me and the jackline is only about 2 ft. long. When I use the jacklines in rough weather moving fore and aft with the short tether actually lifts the jackline when I go forward, etc. At least my engineering brain tells me that this is a little bit safer than the 'traditional' jackline setup that can easily tear out a strong cleat or other supposed 'strong-point'. Climbers, mountain rescue, etc. would NEVER use jacklines in the traditional way that 'boaters' do ... its ultimately too weak and vulnerable to pulling the jackline attachment points out. Doug's point here is very valid (but somewhat unworkable due to spreaders, etc.).
Jacklines (used on deck) also have a 'trigonometry' problem that makes the system especially weak. Making the jacklines 'taught' between two points puts the attachment points at 'approaching infinite stress' when the lines are pulled perpendicularly. Its a situation that mountaineers, climbers and high angle rescue folks absolutely AVOID at all costs - a "Tyrolean Traverse" is always done with a somewhat slack line for this very reason. When you push or pull a taught line perpendicularly that force is magnified by the magic of trigonometry (dividing by the SIN of the angle, which at low angles would be dividing the magnitude of the applied force by zero which can result in an infinite force to the 'ends' of the jackline. This isnt good especially if the attachment points are weak and have never been 'proof loaded'. To avoid this mathematical 'anomaly' boaters typically apply the jacklines 'loosely' --- like the mountaineers tend to do; and, the resultant 'stretchy-ness' in the system is probably just as vulnerable for you to go over the side as not. The obvious answer is, for jacklines, to use extremely thick webbing or webbing that has been at least doubled, never ever 'single ply webbing' but tubular webbing as a minimum. The use of 'rope' is just as bad because with 'rope' lying on the deck you can easily get the rope underfoot and when your body weight preses down the rope can be like stepping on a ball bearing roller .... you can fall quick and hard. My jacklines are thick tubular webbing, they are somewhat 'slack' (to avoid the trigonometry problem) and I use a VERY short tether (tether has an added 'clip') so that the attachment between me and the jackline is only about 2 ft. long. When I use the jacklines in rough weather moving fore and aft with the short tether actually lifts the jackline when I go forward, etc. At least my engineering brain tells me that this is a little bit safer than the 'traditional' jackline setup that can easily tear out a strong cleat or other supposed 'strong-point'. Climbers, mountain rescue, etc. would NEVER use jacklines in the traditional way that 'boaters' do ... its ultimately too weak and vulnerable to pulling the jackline attachment points out. Doug's point here is very valid (but somewhat unworkable due to spreaders, etc.).
Doug I have thought the same thing
It may depend upon boat size. I guess in a small boat you might heel the boat a lot between weight and draggin in the water. The most danger seems to be forward of the mast so use regular jackline up to the mast then clip onto the halyard. Maybe use both forward of the mast. The halyard control you vertically and the jackline to control your swinging around.
It may depend upon boat size. I guess in a small boat you might heel the boat a lot between weight and draggin in the water. The most danger seems to be forward of the mast so use regular jackline up to the mast then clip onto the halyard. Maybe use both forward of the mast. The halyard control you vertically and the jackline to control your swinging around.
It is the purpose of Jacklines to keep you
attached to the boat while allowing movement fore and aft. They are not designed to keep you aboard the boat, that is your responsibility, but should you fall at night they could substantially simplify your recovery.
attached to the boat while allowing movement fore and aft. They are not designed to keep you aboard the boat, that is your responsibility, but should you fall at night they could substantially simplify your recovery.
Simple jackline
There is a guy who cruises the west coast,solo, in a 19' West Wight Potter. Can't remember his name but he writes of his trips in Good Old Boat magazine. His approach is to run webbing from the bow cleat to the stern cleat, outside of all lifelines and shrouds to the starboard side. His theory is that if he goes over he can slide along the jackline to the stern and climb the ladder to board. He only clips to the starboard side so that he doesn't have to worry about getting around the outboard. This seems like a reasonable approach on a small boat and I plan on tring it this summer. Any thoughts on this?
There is a guy who cruises the west coast,solo, in a 19' West Wight Potter. Can't remember his name but he writes of his trips in Good Old Boat magazine. His approach is to run webbing from the bow cleat to the stern cleat, outside of all lifelines and shrouds to the starboard side. His theory is that if he goes over he can slide along the jackline to the stern and climb the ladder to board. He only clips to the starboard side so that he doesn't have to worry about getting around the outboard. This seems like a reasonable approach on a small boat and I plan on tring it this summer. Any thoughts on this?
Never said it was a good thought
but it was A thought
. The side stays might be an issue and you would be restricted to 1 side or the other until you went around the mast. Rich explained my dislike of the traditional setup. I never understood the math behind it, just knew it doesn't look right multiplying that much leverage. Hey Moon, I'll bet I could figure out a way to accidently hang myself being that safe. I guess I was just thinking while reefing or at the mast you get a 6' running start with a traditional rig, with a haylard the helmsman could take up slack on a second cleat when you were working in heavy weather. Anyway it was something to ponder while watching it snow. I'm kind of suprised nobody came up with a reason (yet) that it was stupid. That outside the lifelines theory makes sence to me too. The leverage on the cleats would be at a proper angle and who wants to get trapped on the side singlehanding.
but it was A thought
. The side stays might be an issue and you would be restricted to 1 side or the other until you went around the mast. Rich explained my dislike of the traditional setup. I never understood the math behind it, just knew it doesn't look right multiplying that much leverage. Hey Moon, I'll bet I could figure out a way to accidently hang myself being that safe. I guess I was just thinking while reefing or at the mast you get a 6' running start with a traditional rig, with a haylard the helmsman could take up slack on a second cleat when you were working in heavy weather. Anyway it was something to ponder while watching it snow. I'm kind of suprised nobody came up with a reason (yet) that it was stupid. That outside the lifelines theory makes sence to me too. The leverage on the cleats would be at a proper angle and who wants to get trapped on the side singlehanding.Thinking outside the shrouds.....
I too have pondered the 'vertical jackline' possibility at odd moments, like while watching the a/p sail the boat where the GPS tells it to....... Seems to me that if the West Wight Potter guy puts his jackline outside the lifeline, then it must be outside the shrouds as well. So he has to walk OUTSIDE the shrouds, right? I'm sitting at home trying to visualize this, but it seems to me that if you're going to walk OUTSIDE the shrouds, there won't be any impediment to attaching your tether to a spin/spare halyard. You'll want a bit of slack to be able to 'flip' the line over the spreaders, so that points toward some sort of mechanism to adjust the length of the halyard. I'm sure there are plenty of mountain-climbing doo-dads that would fit the need. Of course, my major problem with implementing this technique is that, owning a Hunter, in addition to no gauges, no hour-meter....... I have no spin/spare halyard! Cheers, Bob s/y X SAIL R 8
I too have pondered the 'vertical jackline' possibility at odd moments, like while watching the a/p sail the boat where the GPS tells it to....... Seems to me that if the West Wight Potter guy puts his jackline outside the lifeline, then it must be outside the shrouds as well. So he has to walk OUTSIDE the shrouds, right? I'm sitting at home trying to visualize this, but it seems to me that if you're going to walk OUTSIDE the shrouds, there won't be any impediment to attaching your tether to a spin/spare halyard. You'll want a bit of slack to be able to 'flip' the line over the spreaders, so that points toward some sort of mechanism to adjust the length of the halyard. I'm sure there are plenty of mountain-climbing doo-dads that would fit the need. Of course, my major problem with implementing this technique is that, owning a Hunter, in addition to no gauges, no hour-meter....... I have no spin/spare halyard! Cheers, Bob s/y X SAIL R 8
Outside the Lifelines
If you're rigged outside the lifelines, you're still going to have to unclip-reclip at the side shroud on your way forward. And when on a port tack, you are accepting a dunking (this system cannot keep you on the deck) as the price of being able to self-recover @ the ladder. Is this paradox a good trade-off? For a micro-cruiser in benign weather & relativey warm water, with minimal clothing, it might have some merit. But I think the majority would say no, and want a system that will keep them from going over in the first place, and so we're back to talking about flat webbing, minimum stretch, angles of tension, unclipping-reclipping, and maybe multiple, short-run jacklines, and the wisdom of clipping in on, and traversing, only the weather side whenever possible. The problem isn't completely solved yet, and will likely be around for a long time.
If you're rigged outside the lifelines, you're still going to have to unclip-reclip at the side shroud on your way forward. And when on a port tack, you are accepting a dunking (this system cannot keep you on the deck) as the price of being able to self-recover @ the ladder. Is this paradox a good trade-off? For a micro-cruiser in benign weather & relativey warm water, with minimal clothing, it might have some merit. But I think the majority would say no, and want a system that will keep them from going over in the first place, and so we're back to talking about flat webbing, minimum stretch, angles of tension, unclipping-reclipping, and maybe multiple, short-run jacklines, and the wisdom of clipping in on, and traversing, only the weather side whenever possible. The problem isn't completely solved yet, and will likely be around for a long time.
I've got it!
Don't go forward! Stay in the cockpit at night or alone underway! Set up your boat that way and relax. Works for me. If I have to go forward (rare) I stop the boat. Huh? Waddya think? Of course, I'm talking cruising, not racing.
Don't go forward! Stay in the cockpit at night or alone underway! Set up your boat that way and relax. Works for me. If I have to go forward (rare) I stop the boat.
Huh? Waddya think? Of course, I'm talking cruising, not racing.
Fred ----
the MORE you go forward the more you build and maintain the necessary 'dexterity' and 'muscle memory' to do so. If because you have all the lines back in the cockpit and rarely ever or never go forward in rough conditions ..... someday (as long as "Murphy" still lives on boats) you WILL have to go forward, wont have that dexterity, and will become more vulnerable of going overboard, etc.
the MORE you go forward the more you build and maintain the necessary 'dexterity' and 'muscle memory' to do so. If because you have all the lines back in the cockpit and rarely ever or never go forward in rough conditions ..... someday (as long as "Murphy" still lives on boats) you WILL have to go forward, wont have that dexterity, and will become more vulnerable of going overboard, etc.
When solo I stand inside to 14x14 forward hatch.
I can pretty much reach everything I need to do from there. I usually retrieve my anchor from there. I do have a jack line that I run from the anchor roller bracket to mast and then mast to stern cleat. I use this in calmer weather when I fly the gennaker. I am on autopilot when releasing the gennaker so I am extra cautious knowing that the boat can sail off without me. When I get to the mast I have something solid to hold onto so reattaching to jackline is no problem. I keep my tether short well aware that I will have a difficult time getting my fat ass back on board if I ever do go over. I use a webbing as suggested by RichH but never thought ab about tubular webbing (good idea). I will replace my single webbing with the tubular the old one sits in the sun day after day and is probably rotted by now. Thanks for the sugggestion Rich. Frank
I can pretty much reach everything I need to do from there. I usually retrieve my anchor from there. I do have a jack line that I run from the anchor roller bracket to mast and then mast to stern cleat. I use this in calmer weather when I fly the gennaker. I am on autopilot when releasing the gennaker so I am extra cautious knowing that the boat can sail off without me. When I get to the mast I have something solid to hold onto so reattaching to jackline is no problem. I keep my tether short well aware that I will have a difficult time getting my fat ass back on board if I ever do go over. I use a webbing as suggested by RichH but never thought ab about tubular webbing (good idea). I will replace my single webbing with the tubular the old one sits in the sun day after day and is probably rotted by now. Thanks for the sugggestion Rich. Frank
Seat belt restraint
I thought that this might be the format to throw out an idea I had only a couple of days ago. Let me stress that this is very much in the embryonic stage and will need some serious engineering if it has any possibilities at all, so lets not have somebody coming back by return mail calling me an idiot, a sentiment that my wife might well endorse but which is very damaging to my delicate ego. The idea is to run a 1/4" diameter (at least ) steel cable from an anchor at the bow to another as far back as I can get it along the centerline of the boat. Probably the traveller. It would be nice if this could be straight but as Rich H ( obviously an engineer like myself) points out, some angularity might have to be introduced to reduce stresses. The anchors I think will be the biggest problem. How you make them strong enough without tearing them out of the boat remains to be seen. Esthetics would need to be considered too I suppose. My safety harness would be attached to the webbing of a typical lockup seatbelt harness.This in turn attached to a simple device which can slide along the cable but will lock up and prevent side movement when a load is put on it. If all this works then the body will not only be prevented from moving outboard due to a sudden move, but from sliding fore and aft too. My plan is to have enough webbing on the seat belt so that I can clip on to this whole thing before leaving the cockpit. I'm also considering a similar device for use in the cockpit so that I can move around there with freedom too. So there's the basic idea. It needs work, no doubt, but it seems to me to have enough merit to be given some serious thought. I note that Cabalos sells a seat belt type device to stop hunters falling out of trees. This might be even better than a car seat belt.
I thought that this might be the format to throw out an idea I had only a couple of days ago. Let me stress that this is very much in the embryonic stage and will need some serious engineering if it has any possibilities at all, so lets not have somebody coming back by return mail calling me an idiot, a sentiment that my wife might well endorse but which is very damaging to my delicate ego. The idea is to run a 1/4" diameter (at least ) steel cable from an anchor at the bow to another as far back as I can get it along the centerline of the boat. Probably the traveller. It would be nice if this could be straight but as Rich H ( obviously an engineer like myself) points out, some angularity might have to be introduced to reduce stresses. The anchors I think will be the biggest problem. How you make them strong enough without tearing them out of the boat remains to be seen. Esthetics would need to be considered too I suppose. My safety harness would be attached to the webbing of a typical lockup seatbelt harness.This in turn attached to a simple device which can slide along the cable but will lock up and prevent side movement when a load is put on it. If all this works then the body will not only be prevented from moving outboard due to a sudden move, but from sliding fore and aft too. My plan is to have enough webbing on the seat belt so that I can clip on to this whole thing before leaving the cockpit. I'm also considering a similar device for use in the cockpit so that I can move around there with freedom too. So there's the basic idea. It needs work, no doubt, but it seems to me to have enough merit to be given some serious thought. I note that Cabalos sells a seat belt type device to stop hunters falling out of trees. This might be even better than a car seat belt.
going forward
I'm with RichH on this one. Going forward teaches you how to go forward. Where to stand/not stand. What to hang on to, clip onto, transfer tethers, do the chores, turn around, get back, etc. You learn the choreography over time when conditions are mild and have more confidence to do what needs doing when things are less than ideal. Otherwise you cower in the cockpit during rough conditions when you should be forward taking care of business.
I'm with RichH on this one. Going forward teaches you how to go forward. Where to stand/not stand. What to hang on to, clip onto, transfer tethers, do the chores, turn around, get back, etc. You learn the choreography over time when conditions are mild and have more confidence to do what needs doing when things are less than ideal. Otherwise you cower in the cockpit during rough conditions when you should be forward taking care of business.
2 cents
A short time ago two brothers were sailing in a group (forgot the race) from England to the US and one fell overboard at night. He dragged in the water and drowned in a few minutes...and his brother couldn't help him. So so much for having the lines over the side etc. thinking you could swim back to the ladder. A friend jumped overboard from the bow this past summer to test some theories. We were going 1.5 knots both times by his electronic readings. We were both amazed at how fast you go from bow to stern. He was able to grab the ladder and pull himself up. I cannot imagine doing this with a tether and moving faster than 2 knots. So I guess the point would be to stay on board. When we did the ocean, at night we tied a 50' dockline from bow to stern and used it as a jackline. Yes, if you stepped on it it was like marbles. Yes it stretched. But my sailing buddy tested it by diving off the cabin top into the water while we were at anchor. Well, he tried to. He never made it. The line stopped him from going near the lifelines. The whole point is to avoid at all costs going over. So you think before you do anything (if you have the time), then proceed with caution.
A short time ago two brothers were sailing in a group (forgot the race) from England to the US and one fell overboard at night. He dragged in the water and drowned in a few minutes...and his brother couldn't help him. So so much for having the lines over the side etc. thinking you could swim back to the ladder. A friend jumped overboard from the bow this past summer to test some theories. We were going 1.5 knots both times by his electronic readings. We were both amazed at how fast you go from bow to stern. He was able to grab the ladder and pull himself up. I cannot imagine doing this with a tether and moving faster than 2 knots. So I guess the point would be to stay on board. When we did the ocean, at night we tied a 50' dockline from bow to stern and used it as a jackline. Yes, if you stepped on it it was like marbles. Yes it stretched. But my sailing buddy tested it by diving off the cabin top into the water while we were at anchor. Well, he tried to. He never made it. The line stopped him from going near the lifelines. The whole point is to avoid at all costs going over. So you think before you do anything (if you have the time), then proceed with caution.
Outside the shrouds....
On my boat, I can walk outside the shrouds and inside the lifelines, so I don't find any impediment to being tethered to a halyard as I move from the cockpit to the bow. If I had a means of tightening/loosening the halyard as I move, I think I could keep myself safely aboard, and avoid the dangers of going over the side. Any thoughts? Cheers, Bob s/y X SAIL R 8
On my boat, I can walk outside the shrouds and inside the lifelines, so I don't find any impediment to being tethered to a halyard as I move from the cockpit to the bow. If I had a means of tightening/loosening the halyard as I move, I think I could keep myself safely aboard, and avoid the dangers of going over the side. Any thoughts? Cheers, Bob s/y X SAIL R 8
Halyard?
what am I missing? It seems to me that if you have to stop at the spreaders and flip the halyard over to move on there are some real problems here. In rough weather and high winds this sounds like a recipe for disaster. First, you will be going forward on the windward side which means flipping that halyard will be that much harder as the wind will be blowing it back towards the mast. Second, in rough conditions, does one want to really stop, look up, and spend time flipping that halyard over the spreader. In the meantime, what about the problem that is demanding you go forward? In rough conditions one often needs to deal with things asap.
what am I missing? It seems to me that if you have to stop at the spreaders and flip the halyard over to move on there are some real problems here. In rough weather and high winds this sounds like a recipe for disaster. First, you will be going forward on the windward side which means flipping that halyard will be that much harder as the wind will be blowing it back towards the mast. Second, in rough conditions, does one want to really stop, look up, and spend time flipping that halyard over the spreader. In the meantime, what about the problem that is demanding you go forward? In rough conditions one often needs to deal with things asap.
Halyard? .....
could you imaging being attached by a halyard, falling overboard, and then the boat heels way over on her beam ends holding the person away from the boat ...... like a tether ball? Could be 'real ugly' depending on which way the tether ball gets 'hit'. ;-)
could you imaging being attached by a halyard, falling overboard, and then the boat heels way over on her beam ends holding the person away from the boat ...... like a tether ball? Could be 'real ugly' depending on which way the tether ball gets 'hit'. ;-)
Lots of Chat on this Topic
I think we have all read a lot about this. For me, the setup depends on where I am. On Lake Ontario when alone I now carry a waterproof VHF, wear my inflatable PFD with strobe attached, and I do not clip in. If I go over the side I won't be dragged by the boat, and I hope to be able to radio for help while I float. Everything I have read convinces me that on auto pilot or even with balanced sails there is no way you can get back on board even in calm water at over 1 or 2 knots. So being clipped in is a bad thing. Offshore, I do clip in. The jack lines I was taught to rig were webbing, soaked for an hour in the sea before being tied on. They dried nice and tight. Used a 3 foot tether which would prevent me going into the water except possibly at midships. If there are others on board you will not be lost at sea. Problem with crew overboard at night in the ocean is finding people, even with a strobe. I would not try the halyard thing on my boat (bene373). Two angled spreaders to get in the way.
I think we have all read a lot about this. For me, the setup depends on where I am. On Lake Ontario when alone I now carry a waterproof VHF, wear my inflatable PFD with strobe attached, and I do not clip in. If I go over the side I won't be dragged by the boat, and I hope to be able to radio for help while I float. Everything I have read convinces me that on auto pilot or even with balanced sails there is no way you can get back on board even in calm water at over 1 or 2 knots. So being clipped in is a bad thing. Offshore, I do clip in. The jack lines I was taught to rig were webbing, soaked for an hour in the sea before being tied on. They dried nice and tight. Used a 3 foot tether which would prevent me going into the water except possibly at midships. If there are others on board you will not be lost at sea. Problem with crew overboard at night in the ocean is finding people, even with a strobe. I would not try the halyard thing on my boat (bene373). Two angled spreaders to get in the way.
Jackline
No comment on the halyard approach, other than that it generally sounds like a bad idea. Having read lots of the old threads on this, I think it is pretty much subject to common sense. I very much disagree with the "running it outside the lifelines", or even the "one on each side of the boat" approaches. Getting dragged alongside the boat at 5-6 knots is pointless, and will get you killed. The point of a jackline has to be to keep you onboard the boat if you lose your balance, or get hit by a wave. With this in mind, I put a strong padeye up on the arch on our H306, maybe a foot to starboard of center, and ran a jackline from the padeye, past the mast on the port side (it doesn't interfere with the running rigging), and secure it at the port-side bow cleat. If I shorten the tether to around 4 feet long, it isn't possible for me to go over the side, except possibly up near the bow cleat, where I've never been when alone. This system feels safe to me, and I can't see pulling out the bow cleat or the padeye (which is bolted to the steel webbing in the arch, not to fiberglass). The West Marine jackline I bought has plenty of stretch. This setup wouldn't work for most people on older Hunters, but I'd recommend it if you have a (solid) arch, such as on a newer Hunter. Jay
No comment on the halyard approach, other than that it generally sounds like a bad idea. Having read lots of the old threads on this, I think it is pretty much subject to common sense. I very much disagree with the "running it outside the lifelines", or even the "one on each side of the boat" approaches. Getting dragged alongside the boat at 5-6 knots is pointless, and will get you killed. The point of a jackline has to be to keep you onboard the boat if you lose your balance, or get hit by a wave. With this in mind, I put a strong padeye up on the arch on our H306, maybe a foot to starboard of center, and ran a jackline from the padeye, past the mast on the port side (it doesn't interfere with the running rigging), and secure it at the port-side bow cleat. If I shorten the tether to around 4 feet long, it isn't possible for me to go over the side, except possibly up near the bow cleat, where I've never been when alone. This system feels safe to me, and I can't see pulling out the bow cleat or the padeye (which is bolted to the steel webbing in the arch, not to fiberglass). The West Marine jackline I bought has plenty of stretch. This setup wouldn't work for most people on older Hunters, but I'd recommend it if you have a (solid) arch, such as on a newer Hunter. Jay
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