It Is What It Is!!

kpgraci · Oct 15, 2012

I'm pretty sure that fits the category of TOO MUCH INFORMATION.

...as for knockdowns, I have no idea.

justsomeguy · Oct 15, 2012

The topic.

Practice is one of the best ways to get good at something, but sometimes, you don't know what you don't know. And sometimes, that can kill you.

It was never established that a pigtail was the culprit, but leaving the mainsheet cleated sure didn't help in the matter.

I used to organize at one of the largest drop zones in the world, over in Eloy. I hated to tell anyone that they should take up bowling, but sometimes, it became apparent that they should not be skydiving.

Nom De Guerre · Oct 15, 2012

That (leaving the main cleated) could have been a momentary lapse in judgement in the heat of the moment while executing a potentially new procedure (sailing to mooring) under abnormal pressures (beating a storm with green passengers aboard).

Or, the guy could be a dope.

Either way, it takes all kinds and nobody is perfect. Some win, some lose, and some lose badly.

Can you recount the last time you made a mistake that in hindsight was plain-as-day stupid? Did you say to yourself "Sheesh, I don't deserve to be allowed to..."? I'm speaking matter-of-factly rather than attempting to insult you.

And the course rangers' first morning job - gross!

kpgraci · Oct 15, 2012

Ok Don, you called me out. All I know is that I don't believe I would be caught in that situation. Why? Because I try to practice caution when I sail. It's a respect for the environment we choose to play in.

Watching the weather, keeping clear of land if a squall hits, I don't know, just common sense. Of course I have done a lot of stupid things on a boat, but I really do try to learn from them.

We all get in over our heads sometime, so stupid is as stupid does.

CalebD · Oct 15, 2012

I'm sure that nobody here has done anything stupid that they learned something from. Storm fronts can and do blow up quickly and unexpectedly. Of course these days with the prevalence of MyPhones, Droids and other hand held devices that can connect you with a local radar source it is a bit easier to know when a front is coming. Knowing a front is coming is only half the battle though. Taking appropriate action to deal with approaching weather is the other half of the battle.

It would be a fairly safe bet that the people who got dumped from the Cat 22' wont likely join that sailor again. Perhaps the 'skipper' of that boat has also thought long and hard about how his 'guests' got hurt and what caused his boat to capsize, or perhaps he is thinking about hanging up his skippers hat. Who knows?

All I think I know is that some people need to step away from racing their golf carts and most everyone I see these days needs to step away from their Iphone and whatnot and stop yakking.

I

Stu Jackson · Oct 15, 2012

Morning or mourning?

Sheesh, cleating a mainsheet has GOT to be the dumbest thing known to man.

Why?

'Cuz many of us have done it, and some of us admit it.

sinnettc · Oct 15, 2012

I cleat my mainsheet all the time! Since I've only got 2 hands, and one is on the tiller, that only leaves one for the mainsheet, traveler and (when single handing) jib sheet.

IF I was sailing up to a mooring I might have done something similar - that is, have the main cleated as I approached the buoy. With someone on the bow I'm not going to have the jib up so it's the main or nothing. I WOULD have the sheet in hand for a quick release and the boom would definitely NOT be connected to the pigtail.

Bill Roosa · Oct 15, 2012

I too cleat my mainsheet ALL the time. it is not like I could hold the thing with out the winch anyway most of the time.

victorhoisington · Oct 15, 2012

This happened on my lake here in the colorado foothills. I've been on this lake for about 6 years now and I've seen a lot. For those who think they can "watch" the weather and avoid this siutation be aware, here in the mountains it can go from 0 to 60 mph in about 5 seconds and thats before the clouds have even made it to the lake.

Not going out means not enjoying a perfectly good day, you just have to always be aware that things can and will change very very quickly and what is happening on one part of the lake may not happen to you. Winds can swirl and build or a sudden down draft can catch you completly by surprise.

One of our most famous pictures up at the clubhouse is two boats flying spinnakers on the same tack heading directly at each other. Its fun and you learn a lot but, you have to always be prepared for anything.

I wasn't there for the "incident" but other than the minor injuries everyone came out OK and lessons were learned. It's not the worst accident or the last, so we all help each other and learn together.

Fair winds,

Capt. Vic
French Temper
Hunter 28

RichH · Oct 15, 2012

I too cleat my mainsheet (but with a slippery hitch for 'just in case').

There is something called a traveller .... and those (dumping) controls are always close at hand and are terminated to cam cleats or (much better) trigger cleats. With 'playing' the traveller instead of 'futzing' with a mainsheet, one can easily or instantly 'blade out' a mainsail and not a risk a sudden 'power up' at exactly the wrong time.

Winkfish · Oct 16, 2012

On boats I have sailed and raced on, the main sheet was always cleated with a cam type cleat, which could usually be quickly jerked loose. Are you all talking about tying to an actual horn cleat here?

There was also talk of pigtails, and the boats I've sailed on either had them or a topping lift. The pig tails were never a problem, but we also didn't forget to unhook them (though, there but for the grace of God ...) In fact, on the Santana 20 I owned before H. Katrina took her away from me, I installed a rope pigtail onto the backstay with a rolling hitch. Worked perfectly. And had I come into a hairy situation like the one described, a sharp knife would have solved the problem.

As for the premise that some people shouldn't sail, EVERYONE who is honest has made mistakes, probably serious and dangerous ones. If the criterion for being allowed to sail was never screwing up, then there'd be no one sailing.

Hopefully, lessons were learned from this incident, and hopefully, we readers will also learn from it.

OldCat · Oct 16, 2012

Don wrote to let me know that my C22 thread had made it over here – so cheers to all and some comments:

Capt. Vic understands conditions here very well. If I did not sail every time there was a cloud on radar behind the hills, I'd almost never be able to go out.

The C22 belongs to newbies – so their lack of knowledge is understandable – and they have been getting instruction to help with the learning curve. They did tell people that I have talked to that they learned a lot about what not to do from this experience. They have also been out a bunch since then, so at least they were not scared off. It is true that they did not know what they didn't know – but that is true for all of us.

The C22 traveller is almost useless – too short. The boat needs to be vang sheeted. I agree about a tight vang under these conditions.

I posted the original story – not to embarrass anyone – but to see what other perspectives would add to my own thoughts about what happened. In my view the main problems were that they did not have a plan to get the main sail down FAST if the bomb hit, and that the main sheet was left cleated as they stopped on the mooring. Because of “experience” on mountain lakes – I have practiced getting the sails down under almost any conditions. Some of the methods that I use were learned on this board, some by having the rail underwater. Sailing lessons and books have been less helpful, at least for me. Perhaps because they are not written for mountain sailing conditions.

OC

Albanach · Oct 17, 2012

RichH – Those Harken Trigger Cleats sound interesting and may be a good option as a mainsheet control in an emergency on my 310 (I normally only use the traveller). It is virtually impossible to release the sheet from my current cam cleat under high load. Have you had experience with with this system and would you think it as useful for a mainsheet? Would be interested in your opinion.

sinnettc · Oct 17, 2012

My main sheet runs through a similar setup but it uses a spinlock XAS type cleat instead of the harken. It works ok but it took some getting used to as you snap it down to release instead of up.

foolproof · Oct 17, 2012

The one thing that I have learned in the last few years, is that I still haven't learned a lot of things! I have never sailed in a storm, so I don't know how to do it. I can read about it and learn that way, but I believe that until it actually happens, I won't really know how to do it. As a consequence, I will head for the marina if it looks like it's going to storm...I don't want to find out the hard way what I don't know.

We had this very thing happen to us this summer; we saw the clouds and the lightning, and decided that we were better off at the marina wishing we were out sailing, instead of being caught in a storm and wishing we were at the marina! We pounded in against a quickly freshening westerly breeze, and got in and tied down about 5 minutes before the storm hit. On our way in, though, we saw a Catalina 27 and a Catalina 22, both headed out for a sail...they got caught in it! I know the guy on the 27...he's a new sailor and didn't know what he didn't know...got pounded pretty good by the winds and waves. Fortunately, the storm didn't last very long. After the event he told me "now I know...that will NEVER happen to me again".

anchorclanker · Oct 17, 2012

I dunno. I been out on 12 and 14 foot fishing boats in two and three foot chop/whitecaps in sub 40F wind and ice cold water splashing water in the boat. I have to say a few times scared the crud out of me. The sailboat gives me much more confidence to take on much rougher weather without being scared spitless, just have to read and practice, read and practice, and listen to these old salts. And be able to read a map. And have that motor tuned and ready, just in case.

Next time im up at the boat that pigtails coming off. There is no sense having anything on the boat that could cause a knockdown by simply forgetting to undo it, and then, being unable to undo it because its got too much load, and you darn sure ain't cutting a steel cable anytime soon with any knife.

sinnettc · Oct 18, 2012

Happens to the best of us . . . This summer while photographing the Emerald Cup Regatta we had a squall come through as everyone was approaching the leeward mark. The guys on the S20 (background of first photo) are very experienced . . . but . . . well . . . oops.

They raised Cool Cat the next morning (I got photos of that too) and they actually raced in the afternoon.

kgw · Oct 23, 2012

When I first got my Wharram Tiki 26 catamaran, it had a horn cleat for the mainsheet! That was the first thing I changed. . .I changed it to a swiveling cam cleat. Further down the road, I set up a double-mainsheet:

I cobbled the setup from a Harken double-mainsheet cleat for a monohull. Snap it up, and away the sheets go! BTW, I've done plenty of ignorant things on my boat, but my motto is, "Always make new mistakes."