Is your boat QUICK??

Brian S · Sep 25, 2014

Thanks, Jackdaw, and others, for your contributions to this.

My philosophy is "Sail it like you stole it" so, no matter what boat I happen to be sailing, I'm trying to get to to go as fast as it can.

I dabble with a toe in racing, but I don't have one of the 2 one designs favored by my club, so I crew for them, but only occasionally race one of my 2 boats. And neither boat has any others of its kind that are raced.

So, I enjoy thoughtful discussions like this, and I like the way Jackdaw and Stu have explained things in the past. I have to say it's a hell of a lot better than the *********s you often find on sailinganarchy.com's forum.

Thanks, guys, keep it up!

Brian S · Sep 25, 2014

Hah, look at that! The forum software edited my reference to some of sailinganarchy's forum posters, even though I typed it in a non-offensive obfuscated manner. Apparently not obfuscated enough.

My original word started with an "a" and had some holes in it...

I would also like to state that not all forum posters over there are *******s. Like, for example, Allan, from www.l-36.com. Ok, yeah, there are some great guys to be found on sailinganarchy. Sometimes it's just so energy intensive to find the thoughtful posts for the *****s.

Gah. I'll stop.

Stu Jackson · Sep 25, 2014

william said:
I wish my PHRF Wednesday night would return to shorter courses for slower boats, we've slow cruisers finishing in the dark and a lonely carbon fiber ultra-light sailboat captain passed out in the clubhouse from finishing too early.

Haven't they learned to start the slower boats first?

Maine Sail · Sep 26, 2014

Jackdaw said:
I'm also busting with pride today... my tactician on our 36.7 is sailing his boat in the J/24 WORLDS this week, and they won a race today. A huge accomplishment. Go the Motorhome!!!

We also have a couple of boats in the J-24 Worlds this year. Carter & Molly (SeaBagsJ24) won race 3 and had a 7th in race 7, otherwise in the top 25% most races...

PHRF:

While I enjoy a boat that has a turn of speed it was not our only choice when choosing a boat but rather part of the equation..

CS-36 - 123
Catalina 34 - 147
Catalina 36 - 144
Ericson 35-3 - 128
Hunter 36 - 150
Morris 36 - 156
Niagra 35 - 171
Pearson 36 - 141
Pearson 36-2 - 126
Pearson 365 - 228
Sabre 36 - 120
Beneteau 361 - 135
Bristol 35.5 - 153
C&C Landfall 35 - 156
C&C Landfall 38 - 138
CAL 35-2 - 138
Cape Dory 36 - 174

Our CS-36 does just fine in the class of boats we would have considered buying but I do not by any means consider her "quick". I do consider her a "tank", hell she weighs 4K + more than our Catalina 36 (using the same scale) and our Catalina 36 was a much larger boat inside and pretty heavy for a fin 36.

To us the lack of creaks and groans when beating up wind in 35 knots, & the build quality, meant more than a slightly faster boat that sacrificed build quality or cut certain corners during construction..

The only boats on the list above I would compare our boat to, build quality wise, would be the Niagara 35 (barely), Cape Dory 36, Bristol 35.5 and the Morris 36.. Of those boats that would be on our list she is technically the fastest. Of course speed for us was only part of the equation... That said we also owned a Catalina 36 that I personally feel was nearly as fast as our CS-36.. On the other side the Ericson 35-3 I consider a faster boat which accelerates significantly faster out of tacks than our CS-36 does yet they both have nearly identical ratings. I raced on a E 35-3 and a E 34 for a few years and they are great 80's performance cruisers..

Other things also matter to us like how the boat tracks, how she balances, how she sails down wind, how she can drive through a sea and retain momentum. The difference in how our Catalina 36 and CS-36 do these things is as dramatic as night and day but those things are rarely accounted for in handicap ratings.... Hull slap/noise at anchor is another one folks often ignore. I have one boat I work on where the owner has given up cruising because the hull slap is so obnoxious he and his wife can't sleep.. This is one area that is rarely if ever talked about. It is one thing for a stripped out Sydney 38 to be noisy on a mooring or at anchor (almost deafening) but a boat billed as a "cruiser/racer" with full cruising amenities and beautiful cherry interior is another story. Yep she's fast but when you have not slept because of hull slap how will you perform sailing her...??

IMHO PHRF ratings should always be a consideration when looking at boats but there is a lot more to buying a boat than a good PHRF rating, unless all you do is PHRF....

Course if I really want to race it is one design.. If I want to beer can it is PHRF.. I enjoy PHRF more than one design for the fun aspect but prefer one design for the competitiveness....

Sandy Stone · Sep 26, 2014

WW88, it appears no one answered your question so I'll give it a shot. The PHRF rating is the number of seconds per mile you are slower than an imaginary 'scratch' boat. Around here a boat that rates close to zero is a J/160, just to give you some idea. In a real race, it is the difference in handicaps between boats combined with the course length that becomes important. PHRF ratings are in increments of 3 seconds per mile, roughly equivalent to one boat length per mile for average boats in average conditions.

Stu Jackson · Sep 26, 2014

Sandy Stone said:
WW88, it appears no one answered your question so I'll give it a shot. The PHRF rating is the number of seconds per mile you are slower than an imaginary 'scratch' boat. Around here a boat that rates close to zero is a J/160, just to give you some idea. In a real race, it is the difference in handicaps between boats combined with the course length that becomes important. PHRF ratings are in increments of 3 seconds per mile, roughly equivalent to one boat length per mile for average boats in average conditions.

Sandy, close, but...

Yes, on seconds per mile. No, on scratch boat. Yes, on differences between boats.

If Boat A beats Boat B, but Boat B has a higher PHRF (i.e., slower boat), then Boat A could still beat Boat B to the finish, but what's called "corrected time" Boat B could win the race. It's simple math: seconds per mile based on the published length of the course by the Race Committee. All boats have elapsed time and corrected times for the race results. All times are based on when the start time of the race is, not when each crosses the start line. The elapsed uncorrected time is when each boat finishes, then corrections are made of the different PHRF numbers of each boat.

Stu Jackson · Sep 26, 2014

Jack, then it's semantics, because in our neck of the woods, there is no scratch boat, one that I would call an "imaginary" boat.

Another example: We have a race with ten contestants. four rate 162, two 167, another four 172. Who's the scratch boat?

If only one boat is faster than ALL the others, yeah, maybe, but again, it's just semantics, 'cuz in my example there are four scratch boats: the fastest ones.

All ten boats get corrected times for the order of finish.

That help?

Jumpstart · Sep 26, 2014

Some quick notes about PHRF ratings and how to understand them.

1. Add 550 to your PHRF rating and that gives you a rough estimate of the number of seconds it takes your boat to travel 1 mile in 10 knots of winds sailing a combination of beating, reaching, and running

2. In 10 knots of wind, 1 boat length equals about 3 seconds for the average boat.

3. PHRF ratings are not uniform nor are they a finite number. Each autonomous PHRF region establishes its ratings based on prevailing conditions for that region. Conditions include wind strength, wave conditions, prevalent course types.

4. A lot more things effect a boats performance that length and sail area. Stability, pitching moment, sail area/wetted surface are, foil shapes, hull shapes come to mind.

5.Quick is a relative term. When I'm racing my 177 rater, a ex MORC design 30 footer looks pretty quick at 96. When I'm crewing on a N/M 68 the Farr 40s look slow.

So If my boat has the wetted surface of a Kitty Hawk class carrier, a 3 foot wing keel, hydrodynamics of a brick, and a sail area close to area of John Candy's shorts in Summer Rental, am I quick? Yep the Cannon Fodder 400 is a sight to behold. 40 feet and and 400 rating, the bane of Race Committees everywhere.

Anonymous 121765 · Sep 26, 2014

Brian,

IF YOU FIND YOURSELF IN AN OPEN-CLASS SAILBOAT RACE, FRET NOT ME BROTHER.

Your makeup time should be factored into every open design race. If they do not factor in your handicap, avoid those races, as the fault does NOT lie with you, but with the race officials/committee.

Just Another reason NOT to become a yacht club member.

Any arguments from club members, just bring it on.

CR

Brian S · Sep 26, 2014

CapnRon, I guess you're referring to me not racing much because I don't have a Thistle or Flying Scot at my club? It's no biggie for me, I very much enjoy crewing. My lack of racing is mostly self-limiting. I'm welcome to race either of my 2 boats in Portsmouth fleet, I just don't often because I'm building up to it. (Actually, I have an allergy to doing stupid things because I can never remember all the rules. But I'm getting there.) For our Leukemia Cup this year, I raced my Harpoon 4.6 in the distance race. I was neck and neck with a Mariner 2+2 for about 3/4s of the race. I rate a 102.5, he rated 101.8 or something. It was super fun. He pulled away from me at the end where the lake opened up and we had longer tacks. An Impulse 21 got line honors, but the Mariner corrected for 1st, and I corrected for 2nd.

Tomorrow, I'm going to race the O'day in a cruiser's division distance race, but I don't expect much, because forecasts say we're going to get skunked on wind. I'm gonna make sure to bring lots of Coronas for my buddy and me to occupy ourselves!