Is your boat QUICK??

[Jackdaw]

No, you still don't get it. Reread King's post. Fast boats are typically more difficult to sail to their rating, because the rating is based on racers and often better sailors! Cruisers are often fully loaded and sailed by mom and pop crews. Put a pro crew in in a stripped cruiser in you will clean up a handicap field, like cheating. It is much more difficult to dominate a puer race class.



I only ever enjoyed one-design racing. No BS, you finished well, or you didn't.

Trust me. I get it just fine.

I find just the opposite. Particularly in W/L situations, 'fast' boats are easier to go fast in a wider range of conditions. That have more sail shape control. Slower boats typically have a narrower window of 'great' conditions.

Also, PHRF ratings are designed to represent a boat in top-shape, top-crew. US-sailing supplies analytic tools the reporting fleets to make sure that the 'cruiser factor' you mention does not get factored into the numbers.

Anyone in a Catalina 22 who routinely beats me in a J/22 in a W/L race corrected; I will bow down and call them superior.

 

[william24424]

Great post. I like the www.tomdove.com sail calculator site that puts boats into four Categories: 1-racer, 2-racer/cruiser, 3-cruiser/racer, and 4-cruiser in order of descending performance.

I wish my PHRF Wednesday night would return to shorter courses for slower boats, we've slow cruisers finishing in the dark and a lonely carbon fiber ultra-light sailboat captain passed out in the clubhouse from finishing too early.

 

[Jackdaw]

I wish my PHRF Wednesday night would return to shorter courses for slower boats, we've slow cruisers finishing in the dark and a lonely carbon fiber ultra-light sailboat captain passed out in the clubhouse from finishing too early.

This is actually the BEST reason for creating PHRF bands.... that slower boats sail (and for sure often finish) in different (aka fading) breeze. This is especially true for evening buoy races, and longer mid-distance races.

 

[Gunni]

How does the PHRF accommodate the differences in sail area - I have way more sail than any B411 boat spec I have ever seen. More like 920 sq.ft.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Trust me. I get it just fine.

I find just the opposite. Particularly in W/L situations, 'fast' boats are easier to go fast in a wider range of conditions. That have more sail shape control. Slower boats typically have a narrower window of 'great' conditions.

Here's a brief analysis (a few posts below); the boats with lower SA/DPL ratios (red symbols) show the most variance in PHRF rating as a function of WLW. The lighter (green & black symbols), racing types show a overall tighter relationship. You could interpret this as saying that historically the crews (in PHRF racing) of the lighter boats consistently get more (the most?) out of the boat's speed capability than crews of the heavier boats.

 

[Jackdaw]

How does the PHRF accommodate the differences in sail area - I have way more sail than any B411 boat spec I have ever seen. More like 920 sq.ft.

Most PHRF fleets allow a rather standardized max sail area for upwind sails (genoa/jib + main) without penalty.

MAIN: the lengths of the foot and luff must be less than the boats published P and E measurements. The roach of the sail must be less these amounts at the 4 standard measurement points.
Headboard shall not exceed the greater of 0.04xE or 0.5 feet.
MGT (7/8 leech) shall not exceed 0.22xE
MGU (3/4 leech) shall not exceed 0.38xE
MGM (1/2 leech) shall not exceed 0.65xE

HEADSAIL: Genoa no larger than 150%LP of J. No positive roach. Jibs (LP<110%) may have positve roach.

Initially fleets gave no credit for smaller sails, head or mainsail furlers, or non-exotic cloth. Now in the interest of getting more people out, most fleets give some credit for some of these things.

 

[Jackdaw]

Here's a brief analysis (attached); the boats with lower SA/DPL ratios show the most variance in PHRF rating as a function of WLW. The lighter, racing types show a overall tighter relationship. You could interpret this as saying that historically the crews (in PHRF racing) of the lighter boats consistently get more (the most?) out of the boat's speed capability than crews of the heavier boats.

That matches my observations and thinking.

 

[Kings Gambit]

You're agreeing with me now, right?? ;^)

Of course-- doesn't the graph show it? I never disagreed; that was someone else!

 

[Jackdaw]

Of course-- doesn't the graph show it? I never disagreed; that was someone else!

LOL I misread who sent it!... was editing it during your 2nd post.

 

[Stu Jackson]

I only ever enjoyed one-design racing. No BS, you finished well, or you didn't.

We've been fortunate here on SF Bay. We've had a large number of Catalina 34 Fleet 1 members who enjoy both cruising and racing. As a result, over the past 25 years, we have had enough C34s to start their own fleets even in winter and summer series that included all sorts of boats, so we have been fortunate to avoid the non-class PHRF follies. We have our own one-design class PHRF numbers for our C34s, even for the non-one design regattas because we have enough boats to have our own C34 starts.

We've been so successful that for our own regattas we separated into racing and cruising divisions, since the racers have been experienced enough to get much, much better at starts than the cruisers who don't do it (at least) monthly the way the racers do.

Interestingly enough, over the years, the racers have been developing a very fair PHRF among the boats, and have made only three or four corrections over those 25 years. As a result, almost all of the current group of 12 regular racers have exactly the same rating, since they've all invested in folding props and have the same 130 headsails. It truly IS one design racing at its best.

Back 12 years or so ago, we did win (only) a couple of races based on the difference between another C34 and our boat, but that has become pretty rare because only our cruising class now has much difference on ratings.

Nice topic, jack.

 

[shemandr]

How does the PHRF accommodate the differences in sail area - I have way more sail than any B411 boat spec I have ever seen. More like 920 sq.ft.

The PHRF police will be making a call ....
On the PHRF application you specify sail dimensions. The place they can't see is the roach of the main. Sailmakers are always adding some there. I don't know how you have way more. If you extend the boom that would be in numbers you supply. Right? Larger jibs are penalized. How much more up can you go? Come to think of it: A local guy was dismasted a few years ago. The rigger made the new mast too tall. It looked like he was reefed all the time. I notice this year the main goes right up to the top. He may have told the PHRF handicapper - or not. Who knows. This is club level racing and everyone takes some liberties. Now if he starts to win all the bling - yeah he would be challenged.
This is really fodder for one design fleets. In PHRF the few seconds such liberties gain will be lost in a poor tack, or missing a wind shift. Or in this guy's case he sails alone so ...

 

[Worldwalker88]

OK... Not being a racer and reading this with interest but no real knowledge of racing. I get out whenever I can and go side by side with some 33's, 38's and some 40's...
Sometimes we stay sisde by side sometimes I creep ahead, MOST times they smoke me BUT we have a blast doing it. Usually I get left on the downwind run.
With that in mind and I am a student of all this.
I looked up my H26.5 in the attachment and these are the numbers. Can someone give me a quick & simple layman's description of what they mean?

Reported Base HCP 186
Lowest Reported Base HCP 186
Highest Reported Base HCP 198
Avg Reported Base HCP 189
Median Reported Base HCP 192

I'm really curious and appriciate any knowledge you guys pass on.

Thanks.

WW

 

[Joe]

The PHRF system is based on race result information submitted to the regional committees. Your PHRF rating in so cal may be different from the same boat in Lake Michigan area, for example. Or there may be equipment differences, such as larger genoas or laminated sails.

HCP means "handicap" which is what the PHRF rating system is.

Your list is a summary of these race result submissions. Median is the exact middle of the list of boats. Average is the sum or ratings, divided by the number of boats.

 

[Worldwalker88]

Ok.. I understand it's a handicapping system. My question is this: Is thaere an arbitrary # they start with?
i.e. cost of living in a particular place in the U.S. is set compared to "100" - the 100 being your cost in New York City. They had to start somewhere, I guess.
Anyway, my avg of 189 is compared to what? Over under what? Just the avg what of my boat or avg compared to the sum of squares of the price of rum in Tokyo?
See what I mean?

This is where I've lost the data in this thread because I'm not making a connection between the relative numbers.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Here's a brief analysis (attached); the boats with lower SA/DPL ratios (red symbols) show the most variance in PHRF rating as a function of WLW. The lighter (green & black symbols), racing types show a overall tighter relationship. You could interpret this as saying that historically the crews (in PHRF racing) of the lighter boats consistently get more (the most?) out of the boat's speed capability than crews of the heavier boats.

Here's an update with additional information; one data point was off in the first figure.

 

[shemandr]

Yes, there is a database. PHRF is not a rating system based on a rule or design parameters like many other systems are. It is based on performance with some adjustments on local levels.
So when you submit your application, the handicapper looks up your boat on the national data base and adjusts it for your particular boat depending on the information you give him. The database is formed by years of experience in fleets around the country and while the numbers vary some in local areas they are pretty consistent. There is no need to measure the boats (There is some need to verify that certain boats are in compliance with the rules of the fleet and PHRF.)
There is a lot of justified criticism of PHRF, and it's easy to go on about it weaknesses, but for the 30 years that I can point to, rules have come and gone and PHRF is still here. That says something.
As Jackdaw indicated, PHRF ultimately is based on water line length. Not that LWL is measured. But the longer LWL boats are generally faster than the shorter ones and it shows in the numbers.
Hope this helps.

 

[shemandr]

So, KG's table indicates that there is more range in PHRF ratings among the boats with the lower SA/Disp ratios. I don't think this is surprising. It may mean the better sailors are in the faster boats, or it may mean the faster boats are similar designs (It is a competitive market out there in design). Or it could mean something else. And it seems to buttress the case for banding, so that boats in certain SA/Disp. ranges sail together. In our local fleet we do this. If we had more boats for club races we could do it better.

 

[Kings Gambit]

If we had more boats for club races we could do it better.

I think you have the essence of the problem I've seen around. Sailboat racing is rapidly becoming more of a social activity than a competitive sport. If a member of So. Cal. PHRF shows up in an Islander 24 to race, but otherwise the fleet consists of a J 24, an Olson 30 or 40, and a few Catalina's from 25 to 38 ft, an X-boat (oh yeah--throw in a catamaran) --whadaya gonna do?

 

[Stu Jackson]

1. It may mean the better sailors are in the faster boats, or it may mean the faster boats are similar designs (It is a competitive market out there in design).

2. Or it could mean something else. And it seems to buttress the case for banding, so that boats in certain SA/Disp. ranges sail together. In our local fleet we do this. If we had more boats for club races we could do it better.

Good points, Andrew.

1. More the latter. Most of the newer "racer" oriented boats literally come out of the factory with "one design class" rules (or, depending on how you judge it, "restrictions"). Think Melges 24s for example. The CONCEPT is to make them true one design classes, avoid the $$-spending that used to make older boats more competitive (i.e., read "winners") because some skippers had more $$ than brains!!!

2. Correct. In areas that don't have a lot of the same boats, PHRF is pretty much the only game in town for different boats to reasonably sail and race together. As I mentioned in my earlier post about our C34 fleet here, there are definitely other "starts" in those winter and summer series which include what many would conceive of completely different boats that DO race together. Over the years, the ratings have been developed, LOCALLY, so that it is as fair as they can make it. If that hadn't happened, then those skippers wouldn't bother to continue to race, right? But they do, so they must think it is fair. That's the whole purpose of PHRF, which is basically time on distance.

 

[shemandr]

Over the years, the ratings have been developed, LOCALLY, so that it is as fair as they can make it. If that hadn't happened, then those skippers wouldn't bother to continue to race, right? But they do, so they must think it is fair. That's the whole purpose of PHRF, which is basically time on distance.

Yes. Skippers have to have the perception of fairness or eventually you'll have three boats racing for first, second and third (That is a quote from John Lockwood - who is a well known as a sailing booster and who had many more wins before I was born than I could ever win since.) Fairness is ephemeral. But fleet handicappers have to crack the whip, sort of speak, to make sure that the numbers make the fleet competitive.

Maybe a new thread is needed to kick around the future of racing. There's a great division between club racing, whose participation is sketchy, and higher levels of racing which is, well a bit sketchy, too. But each is for different reasons. But since most on this forum compete on club level racing, I think that's the area of most interest.