Is This The Year To Switch To Propane?

[robertsapp]

We're in the market this year for an outboard for the dink. We know it will probably only be used a few times a month, and spend most of its time hanging on the stern rail. We also know that most outboard problems are related to fuel, like gummed up carbs from inadequate use, effects of ethanol, etc. So we're looking very hard at the new outboards from Lehr that run on propane. Looks like they were introduced at the Miami Boat Show last month, and both Defender and West Marine are carrying them.

http://www.golehr.com/marine.php

They have the ability to run for an hour or so (quick trips ashore) on the same one lb bottles the grill uses, and can use larger external tanks for longer trips. The biggest obvious advantage is absolutely no fuel problems. The motor can sit in the hot Florida sun for six months and still start easily because there's nothing to gum up the carb. They don't even have a choke.

So while we were looking at that and going "Hmmmm," we then found this:

http://www.yamaha-propane-natural-gas-generators.com/

An authorized Yamaha power equipment dealer that sells Yamaha inverter generators set up for tri-fuel operation (gas, propane, and natural gas) with full factory warranties. Since we were also thinking about picking up one of those small Honda generators this year, and the Yamaha units are supposed to run quieter, longer, and have a better EPA rating than the Honda's, we're wondering if the ideal solution might be to pick up a couple of those new composite propane bottles, maybe the ten pound size, and just go propane for the outboard and generator.

Any obvious disadvantages we're overlooking? Yes, propane can be dangerous, but so is gasoline. The tanks would stay outside the boat. The fuel would never go stale. We already carry propane because of the stove and grill, and this would allow us to go with just diesel and propane and not also have to store gasoline onboard.

We wouldn't be seriously considering it if the prices were outrageous, but there's only about a 10% to 15% premium on the cost of the outboard and generator, and that should be easily recouped through lower maintenance costs.

 

[RECESS]

I would love to piggyback on your discussion. My 323 has propane tanks built into the cockpit. I was wondering if the Honda EU2000 loses any capacity by switching the carb to propane? It is only a $95 addition to add the propane kit. Does anyone run their EU2000 on propane?

 

[Rick D]

If I were in your position, I would seriously consider it. I'm up to here with unstable fuel and the need to keep it rotated and spiked with stabilizer. I think I would cable lock any large bottle to the dinghy though. Good luck!

 

[All U Get]

Friends of ours had a trolling motor on their mini-pontoon boat and have been motoring around the lake for 8 years. They have a Torqeedo on it now and only have a starter battery for the evenings. The two old solar panels have moss growing inside them and keep putting out the juice. I wanted to help him check the charge rate and he said "It aint broke". If I didn't get a new outboard with my boat, I'd consider a Torqeedo.
All U Get

 

[Ross]

The next time you are in Home Depot or Lowes check and see what they use for fuel on the fork lifts.

 

[Lost Parent]

Home Depot and all the rest use propane indoors due to combustion fumes from gas or diesel motors

 

[Sailm8]

I'm am very seriously looking at a propane alternative when it comes time to replace my outboard. The Yamaha generator would be a bonus. From being a bullet proof engine my outboard has become hit or miss on starting.

 

[thinwater]

E10 mostly just needs proper storage

I think I've had as many small outboard e10 woes as average. Then I learned to do 3 things:
* Keep the tank full. Limits breathing.
* Keep the vent closed and clsoe fuel valve when not running. No breathing.
* Add a small in-line filter if one does not exist (many dingy outboards have only a crude filter inside the tank).

Careless fuel storage is like leaving milk out on the counter and wonding why it's nasty. Treat e10 with respect and it works. No problems for years.

Bigger tanks that cannot be sealed are more complicated. But that is off topic.

Propane has it's problems too. Regulators rust. Diaphrams fail and leak. Fuel bottle valves leak. I've been around enough propane forklifts to know this is no majic cure. Let's listen for a few years; there will be engine and fuel system problems, perhaps about equal.

 

[robertsapp]

Friends of ours had a trolling motor on their mini-pontoon boat and have been motoring around the lake for 8 years. They have a Torqeedo on it now and only have a starter battery for the evenings. The two old solar panels have moss growing inside them and keep putting out the juice. I wanted to help him check the charge rate and he said "It aint broke". If I didn't get a new outboard with my boat, I'd consider a Torqeedo.
All U Get

I really don't think a Torqeedo would work for us. I just don't see one pushing through chop into a 25 knot wind. Around here, you can tell the people who use them because they're the ones that make you scratch your head and ask "why are they moving so slow? They'll never make the beach at that speed before the current gets them."

 

[robertsapp]

Propane has it's problems too. Regulators rust. Diaphrams fail and leak. Fuel bottle valves leak. I've been around enough propane forklifts to know this is no majic cure. Let's listen for a few years; there will be engine and fuel system problems, perhaps about equal.

I do like the idea though of being able to throw away the Stabil and the Seafoam. On the down side, I can see where I'd have to monitor my fuel usage, because I couldn't just pop into a convenient marina to refill as most don't offer propane.

 

[Benny17441]

Those Yamaha tri-fuel generators are dealer converted units. Ask about any manufacturer's warranty issues. There is a loss of around 10 to 15% in engine power with the use of propane. Instead of 1600 continuous watts you will get around 1400W. For most applications it would not be a problem but when running A/C the generators need to produce all the power they can muster. As far as the outboard I think is a great application which will reduce maintenance and fuel problems. Those 1lb cannisters can be stored in the anchor locker which is properly vented. Regarding availability. If your boat already has a propane installation for the galley they sell an adapter to refill the 1lb cannisters from a propane bottle. Refilling them up on deck would not pose a significant hazard.

 

[RECESS]

I have been reading different first hand accounts as far as power loss. From what I have read from people using the propane conversion on the Eu2000, they say they are not experiencing a significant loss. I am going to stay with gas but the propane option would be great as long as I could run my AC when I wanted.

 

[RichH]

Propane has an equivalent 'octane rating' of 103 (regular gas @ 87 octane) ... meaning you can get more HP out of a propane fueled engine ..... If you can advance the spark timing to increase the 'burn time' ... hard to do with stock electronic spark timing sensors.

 

[robertsapp]

Those 1lb cannisters can be stored in the anchor locker which is properly vented. Regarding availability. If your boat already has a propane installation for the galley they sell an adapter to refill the 1lb cannisters from a propane bottle. Refilling them up on deck would not pose a significant hazard.

I store them along side the silly little 4.25 lb propane tanks the boat uses (see attached). Also, there's word that in addition to several more powerful outboard models, Lehr is also planning to release a reuseable 1 lb canister designed to be easily refilled. Technically, the existing camping gas ones are disposable and it's illegal to refill them. I'd do it of course, there's a reason I fly a pirate flag afterall. They say it's not that great an idea to do it more than once or twice though.

 

[robertsapp]

Propane has an equivalent 'octane rating' of 103 (regular gas @ 87 octane) ... meaning you can get more HP out of a propane fueled engine ..... If you can advance the spark timing to increase the 'burn time' ... hard to do with stock electronic spark timing sensors.

The outboard was designed for propane, so I'm sure it's optimized. Reading the literature, the tri-fuel generators are supposed to include a tachometer/hour meter and they make mention of adjusting fuel flow for maximum RPM. I'm guessing this compensates for any power reduction. The best thing to do would probably be to call them. I'm planning to measure one of the cockpit lockers to see if it would hold the Yamaha 2400 watt model. I wasn't comfortable with storing a gasoline powered unit in there, but there would be no worries if I only used propane.

 

[RichH]

The pragmatic view should include how easy is it to get propane from a fuel dock.

If you are long distance cruising, you'll very quickly find that getting propane bottles refilled is a ROYAL PITA, well beyond more than a royal PITA in 'de islands, mon'.

 

[alexco38]

Hi RichH

The octane rating is a measure of how likely a gasoline or liquid petroleum fuel is to self ignite. The higher the number, the less likely an engine is to pre-ignite and suffer damage. It has nothing to do with HP.

Sports car need higher Octane gas because they have higher compression ration. Therefore it is a waste of money to fill my beater with high test gas.

 

[Gunni]

I'm planning to measure one of the cockpit lockers to see if it would hold the Yamaha 2400 watt model. I wasn't comfortable with storing a gasoline powered unit in there, but there would be no worries if I only used propane.

Propane would be just as dangerous as gasoline, if not more, in this scenario.

 

[BrianW]

Robertsapp, I too live in Pensacola and sure wished I had a natural gas capable generator after Hurricane Ivan when I was desperately trying to scavenge gasoline 5 days after Ivan. Fuel options for a generator makes a LOT of sense! For a dingy, I don't see a huge downside for a propane outboard, as long as you pre-plan to assure an adequate fuel supply. BrianW

 

[robertsapp]

Propane would be just as dangerous as gasoline, if not more, in this scenario.

I can't see how. If I had gas in the generator, it would probably go into the locker with gas in the tank, as I doubt I'd empty and purge the fuel tank after every use. If it were running off propane, once I disconnected the hose, there'd be no fuel in the generator, as whateve tiny amount remained in the carburator would quickly dissipate.

I guess I should point out that this is a portable generator. My intent isn't to run it in the locker, but rather to pull it out and sit it on deck when I needed it, plugged into my shore power connection.