Is this normal?

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · May 15, 2015

This is not wrong. Call it the Peggy Hall modification. She is also know as the head mistress. You can find her stuff all over this forum. Buy her book.

The problem is likely your head pump needs a rebuild. What head do you have? With the common Jabsco you need to have the he handle down when using the sink. If it is still draining into the head with the handle down then the pump would need a rebuild.

Good luck and fair winds,

Jesse

Stu Jackson · May 15, 2015

I agree. It's NOT wrong, it's an improvement.

Peggie Hall's Top Ten Hits

Head Odors 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5755.0.html

Head Odors 101.1 - "T" into sink drain: http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5755.msg38216.html#msg38216

Head Leaks and Vented Loops 101.1.a http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5865.0.html

Head Odors 101.2 The Difference between KO & Odorlos (scroll up to Reply #2) http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=890493&highlight=odorlos

Head Odors 101.3 Flix of New Vent http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,8185.msg57288.html#msg57288

Head Hoses 101 http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5738.0.html

Head Pumps 101 Why just pouring water into the bowl is NOT a good idea http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5865.msg40604.html#msg40604

Fresh Water System Recommissioning 101 - Peggie Hall's "Cocktail" http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,5836.0.html

woodster · May 15, 2015

If the sea cock can be turned to stop the water from going in or out of the boat it is doing what it was designed to do and that surveyor needs to take a look at his opinionater and stick to the basics

The Garbone · May 15, 2015

Funny. All the above is correct. I replumbed my head to do this. Can pour vinegar into the sink and kill the crud round the bowl lip when pumped thru. Does sound like your head pump may need a refreshing if the handle is locked down. You can buy a rebuild kit or better yet an entire new pump for under $100. Replacing the entire pump is like hitting the easy button and when poo is involved that is a good thing.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · May 16, 2015

Freshwater from the lake is different from freshwater from the tank. There are tons of critters in the lake.

chrisings · May 19, 2015

JK_Boston_Catalina310 said:
Freshwater from the lake is different from freshwater from the tank. There are tons of critters in the lake.

:+1:There is lot's of "stuff" growing in that lake water. Introduce those critters to the holding tank and "interesting" odors are sure to follow.

jonelli · May 24, 2015

wow, I just learned a lot from this post!
I've been pulling my head sing faucet/shower head out to put fresh water in the tank this whole time to flush it. When I got the boat I didn't understand the T under the sink. I knew how a normal seawater head works. Now I understand the T, as a PO has done this mod already! thanks!

Stu Jackson · May 24, 2015

OS2Dude said:
Thanks for the links. I still don't understand the necessity. (The boat is and always has been in a fresh water lake) Is this mod somehow supposed to get fresh water into the toilet to flush with? If so, it is redundant in a fresh water lake...

I will try it again and make sure the toilet handle is down.

It's for boats in sea water. Salty...

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · May 24, 2015

OS2Dude said:
Issue - During the survey, it was discovered that when you use the head sink, the sink drain flows into the toilet. It seems they share a seacock. The toilet uses it for raw water intake, and the sink is supposed to use it as a grey water discharge. Instead the sink drains more into the toilet than out the seacock. (It was open.) The surveyor said the plumbing is 100% wrong. Is this the factory way, or a PO's "mod"? How is it supposed to be?
Thank you

Plumbing a marine toilet this way isn't wrong...in fact, some boat builders do it that way (Tartan was one...in fact, it was a Tartan owner who gave me the idea) 'cuz it eliminates one hole in the boat AND saves 'em the cost of a seacock. However, there are some possible reasons why sink water is going into the toilet instead of out the drain thru-hull:

1. The most likely reason: No vented loop in the intake...it belongs between the pump and the bowl and needs to be at least 6-8" above waterline AT ANY ANGLE OF HEEL...which, on a sailboat, puts it 2-3 FEET above the bowl (see attached photos...the little one in the second photo is the intake vented loop...you don't need one in the discharge if the toilet only flushes into the tank). The same thing would happen if the head intake line were on its own seacock. When the "wet/dry" lever is left in the wet mode, there's nothing stopping the sea/lake water from flooding the toilet.

Others have mentioned that the toilet may need a rebuild...or at least a new joker valve in the discharge. Joker valves (cup shaped doodad with a slit--or a cross shaped slit-- in the bottom and "lips" on the outside) in the discharge fitting on the toilet). Joke valves should be replaced at LEAST every two years...annually if a liveaboard or the boat is used year round.
However, although a rebuild and/or a new joker valve--or a new pump if the toilet is a Jabsco--will definitely improve the performance of the toilet, it won't solve this problem because the water is coming into the toilet via the INTAKE...the joker valve is in the DISCHARGE fitting.

You need the installation instructions for your toilet...there's a drawing showing where the vented loops go....and also a complete exploded drawing of the toilet pump and the parts list. Jabsco 29090 -3000 Twist 'n' Lock manual toilet instructions Or, if your toilet is an older model this one Jabsco manual toilet pre Twist 'n' Lock

Even though you're on a fresh water lake, the ability to rinse the lake water out of the system can come in very handy at times 'cuz lake water can be skanky in a marina or a cove that isn't fed by a creek that keeps it clean. Or, it can be useful to close the seacock and use water from the sink (fill the sink and flush...because the seacock is closed, the toilet will pull the water out of the sink) if you find yourself in shallow water that's full of weeds or teeming with little fish that can be sucked into the head intake....LOADS of fun to clean out of the intake hose, the pump and the channel in the rim of the bowl!

Stu Jackson · May 24, 2015

Very good points about skanky "fresh" water, too.

jonelli · May 26, 2015

So if I understand correctly, I leave the sink drain seacock OPEN, turn on the sink fresh water to fill the sink, switch head pump to WET, pump, then switch to dry and pump.

This sucks the fresh water from the sink through the pump, yes?

Stu Jackson · May 26, 2015

NO, you CLOSE the seacock.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · May 26, 2015

You'd leave the seacock open to use sea/lake water to flush the toilet. To flush using water from the sink, CLOSE the seacock, fill the sink with water (which would not be possible if you leave the seacock open because the water would just go down the drain and out the thru-hull)... flush in the "wet" mode to pull the water from the sink. Switch to the dry mode to remove the last of the water from the toilet, same as you'd do when using lake water.

jonelli · May 26, 2015

So then you are constantly opening and closing the seacock? So whenever I use the sink, and wanted to drain outside I have to reopen it

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · May 26, 2015

jonelli said:
So then you are constantly opening and closing the seacock? So whenever I use the sink, and wanted to drain outside I have to reopen it

Not unless you want to use fresh water from the sink for every flush. Most people only need to use fresh water from the sink to rinse out the system before the boat will sit...and they do that after they've closed the seacocks in preparation for leaving the boat. If you find yourself in waters that make it necessary to use it any more often than that, you'll consider the need to open the seacock to wash your hands a small price to pay. If the seacock's location is too inconvenient, you can always install a conveniently located shutoff valve in the sink drain line.

However, this is not intended to turn a sea water toilet into a fresh water toilet...it's a safe way to provide fresh water to the toilet to rinse all the sea water out of the system so it doesn't sit, stagnate and stink. If you want to flush with fresh water all the time, you'll be much better replacing the toilet with one designed to use pressurized fresh water.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · May 26, 2015

jonelli said:
So then you are constantly opening and closing the seacock? So whenever I use the sink, and wanted to drain outside I have to reopen it

No, you don't use fresh water all of the time. You leave the seacock open and flush with the water that comes in through the seacock. Then once a week or so you close the seacock and fill the sink with water. Maybe add a little vinegar or perhaps a head treatment like KO. Flush that down the head in wet mode and switch to dry mode when it is all in the bowl/lines to empty the bowl.

jonelli · Jun 3, 2015

So, here's my head plumbing. (Sorry for the bad diagram)
I have the vented loop between the pump and the bowl, but I do not have a vented loop for the bowl exit as shown in the previous post.

My sink has a shutoff valve underneath I assume to allow flushing with seawater, but just dropping in the sink drain plug seems enough for the toilet pump to suck sea water in without having to close the valve.

My question is... to keep things simple without having to remember what cock needs to be open when final flushing or rinsing, and to not confuse my wife...
If I leave the inlet seacock open and fill the sink with fresh water, the head pump seems to suck it into the toilet. (I'm not going to taste it to be sure!)

Would you think that would be enough to flush the lines with "fresh" water?
That way I can leave the inlet seacock open for sink use draining all the time.

Peggie Hall HeadMistress · Jun 3, 2015

My sink has a shutoff valve underneath I assume to allow flushing with seawater, but just dropping in the sink drain plug seems enough for the toilet pump to suck sea water in without having to close the valve.

That shutoff valve is most likely there to prevent the pressure of water against the hull--and the open seacock--from turning your sink into a fountain when you're on a tack to that side. Keeping the plug in the sink accomplishes the same thing. It shouldn't have any effect on whether the toilet can pull in sea water.

My question is... If I leave the inlet seacock open and fill the sink with fresh water, the head pump seems to suck it into the toilet. (I'm not going to taste it to be sure!)

If you leave the seacock open when filling the sink with fresh water, the toilet will pull in a mix of sea and fresh water. Close the seacock.

That way I can leave the inlet seacock open for sink use draining all the time.

I don't think you've grasped yet that it's not necessary to rinse out the lines after every flush...and as a result you're waaaay over-producing this.

You CAN leave the sink drain seacock open all the time that you're aboard, because you'll only need to use fresh water from the sink to rinse out the system last thing before leaving the boat, AFTER you've closed all the seacocks in preparation for leaving (surely you don't leave them open while no one is aboard???). That's most likely the ONLY times that you'll need to fill the sink with fresh water and flush that through the toilet...to rinse all the sea water out of the entire system so it won't stagnate and STINK while sitting trapped in the lines in the summer heat.

When you come back aboard, open all your seacocks and use the sink and toilet "normally."

Is this normal?

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