Is this Boat a good boat?

[jssailem]

How many times do we hear the question: Can I sail this boat around Newfoundland? Across The Atlantic? To Antartica?

Ok maybe that is a bit over the top, but we hear the question regularly from inexperienced sailors wanting to join the fraternity of cruising adventurers. They see a video, or read a story and they feel the urge to explore. Then the reality of being 20 miles off shore (in reality 20 or 1000 is all about the same in a boat), the wind is starting to strengthen, the CG is broadcasting weather warnings and the once calm ocean waters are beginning to look angry, that is when the doubts about ones boat start to creep into the thinking of most sailors. Am I prepared? Did those guys at SBO give me good info about the boat I bought?

Reading Practical Sailor this morning I was struck by the obvious.

"From the earliest days of boatbuilding, there were appropriate scantlings for inshore light-duty craft and higher scantlings for ocean-going vessels enduring more arduous conditions. This habit of designing and building to the demand of a vessels mission continues today, and its no surprise that an around-the-world raceboat, which must endure bone-jarring slamming loads, incorporates structural details that are alien to run-of-the-mill sailboats at local boat shows. A crew preparing to wander down the Intracoastal Waterway has no need for a hull and deck thats fortified to endure the torment of the Roaring Forties, but that’s no excuse for shortcuts in critical load-bearing areas." Rethinking Sailboat Structure New designs, construction techniques are reshaping our hulls. Published: January 20, 2015Updated: July 31, 2020​

It is a good read. The above paragraph gets right to the point. Boat design is based on the "Vessels mission".

If you do not understand the waters you believe you will be sailing, then boat selection is if not impossible, at the least, a random crap shoot.

We often approach boat buying like we do car purchases. We all know the interstates are pretty much the same so most cars meet the design expectations. If we are planning to drive off road we don't start looking at the Lamborghini dealership for a vehicle. Not all waters are the same. I believe your boat purchase should start with the waterscape and how you plan to explore it.

When you bought your boat what were the triggers that caused you to pull out your checkbook?

Has your purchase lived up to the dream you imagined? Have you had to alter the dream? Or the boat to adjust to the dream?

 

[dlochner]

Read the same article this morning, it is well worth the read. The topic comes up frequently on forums, honestly answering the questions, especially post purchase, can challenge ones tact in answering.

Boat designers design to a purpose, builders build to a price, and buyers buy a dream. The more knowledgeable the buyer is, the more likely they are to be satisfied.

When we bought Second Star we bought it and have been refitting it for a specific purpose, an extended trip through the Canadian Maritimes and then down the coast to the Bahamas. We fully expect her to be more than adequate for our purposes.

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

Almost invariably, it’s a safe bet that whomever asks “is this a good boat to...” doesn’t have the experience to do it regardless of the answer

 

[shemandr]

I advocate and have posted that buyer's should in mind how and where they will use the boat before shopping. Start with the draft. Here in Florida the bays are pretty shallow to very shallow. If you buy a boat with seven foot draft you'll be very limited. I once bought a boat that had been on Lake Michigan and it didn't even have a depth meter. Different venues mean different designs.

 

[Kings Gambit]

In my observation new boat owners, historically, have gravitated to the brands popular or produced in their area. Such as Pearson and J yachts in New England; Morgan, Hunter, and Irwin yachts in Florida; Tartan and C&C yachts in the Great Lakes, and Catalina and Erickson yachts in Southern California. The market for those yachts in the 30 to 36-ft LOA range was local use, which means they need not have been “overbuilt” for extensive cruising and, therefore, not prohibitively expensive. Now, of course, after the 1993 10% luxury tax (since repealed) on boats drove many local builders out of business, killing or maiming our industry, we have the imports flooding into that same market, thus also @ relatively low cost, competing chiefly with Catalina and Hunter. So, those are what the Newbies see.

The larger yachts of any brand are inherently more seaworthy, and increase exponentially in price larger than about 36-38 ft LOA. But also against that backdrop, true world-class cruising yachts are an expensive “speciality“ build or brand, such as Hinckley, Island Packet, or Pacific Seacraft. By the time a boater is willing to commit to a purchase of that degree, s/he probably does have the experience to know what is being bought. In effect, the answer will nearly always be “no, not really” for most asks of the OP’s question.

 

[dlochner]

The group I worry about are the ones who come to sailing later in adult life with a "dollar and a dream." They dream about tropical islands and secluded beaches and jump right into a big boat having little or no sailing experience. Often they seem to end up buying boats long on creature comforts and short on everything else.

Last summer we spent some time in with a retired Canadian Navy captain who had a 45 ft fancy sailboat with a French brand name (He was from Montreal). As will happen with cruisers, the talk turned to dreams and plans. His was to head to Tahiti. When I mentioned sailing his boat there, he was quick to point out that his boat was a boat to sail that far. If he was going to take it to Tahiti, he'd put it on a bigger boat. His boat was perfect for the sailing he was doing, going from Montreal up river to Lake Ontario and entertaining friends and family.

Like anything worth learning, there is a natural progression from neophyte to expert. In sailing the natural progression is from small daysailer to larger cruising or racing boat. It is possible to skip a few steps, from daysailer to midsize (~30') cruiser, but the best most competent sailors I have sailed with or known, have always started small and worked their way up. In doing so a lot of important learning that happens. There are a few folks who are active here going through that learning process. They'll be good sailors and boat owners in a few years and when it comes time to pick the right boat for the dreams, they will be much better prepared than many of the dreamers.

Neophytes often do not appreciate the complexity of larger boats and the amount of knowledge that needs to be mastered to be master of one's own boat. Too much to learn too quickly (or expensively) and it all becomes a frustrating experience.

 

[dlochner]

In my observation new boat owners, historically, have gravitated to the brands popular or produced in their area. Such as Pearson and J yachts in New England; Morgan, Hunter, and Irwin yachts in Florida; Tartan and C&C yachts in the Great Lakes, and Catalina and Erickson yachts in Southern California. The market for those yachts in the 30 to 36-ft LOA range was local use, which means they need not have been “overbuilt” for extensive cruising and, therefore, not prohibitively expensive. Now, of course, after the 1993 10% luxury tax (now repealed) on boats drove many local builders out of business, killing or maiming the our industry, we have the imports flooding into that same market, thus also @ relatively low cost competing chiefly with Catalina and Hunter. So, those are what the Newbies see.

In part, this is due to economics. Moving a boat across country is expensive. While an Erickson and a Pearson are comparable boats in terms of build quality and design, when the shipping costs are included the price is no longer competitive. Shipping costs were one of the reasons Beneteau opened a factory in SC, which will be closing soon.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I don’t recall any folks asking SBO whether or not a Freedom, Caliber, Passport, or Tartan yacht 40 ft or greater can sail across the Atlantic, even if a newbie.

 

[dlochner]

I don’t recall any folks asking SBO whether or not a Freedom, Caliber, or Tartan yacht 40 ft or greater can sail across the Atlantic, even if a newbie.

Well, any of those builders, build boats that can safely cross oceans. There are probably more of the "is this a boat to go cruising on..." questions over on Cruisers Forum.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Well, any of those builders, build boats that can safely cross oceans. There are probably more of the "is this a boat to go cruising on..." questions over on Cruisers Forum.

My point—and the owners probably know it.

 

[Tedd]

I approached my first boat purchase (I had previously sailed boats I didn't own) the same way I approach the purchase of any vehicle, and the same way I approach an engineering project. I first laid out the use cases: How do I expect to use this boat? From the use cases, I then established requirements (must have, should have, should not have, must not have--all quantifiable, where possible). All of that was, of course, done within the context of a budget. It was also an iterative exercise because, all the while, I was learning new things about boats. Eventually, as it almost always does, this narrowed the field to a single choice, and I then began shopping for that boat.
I'm doing the same thing now, with a revised set of use cases and a revised set of requirements, based on what I learned with the first boat. I'm down to two boats and a new budget, and I've started actively looking.

 

[MitchM]

Lloyds still rates some boats as ‘class A Ocean’ . Most are not. Some boats not so rated — like camper nicholsons — proved the worthiness of their designs and integrity of their construction by surviving in the fastnet storm. When i get ‘the question’ i tell the inquirer to just buy him or herself a class A Ocean raated boa5 per Lloyds Lloyds and 3 years of ailing piloting and navigation courses from us power squadrons and they’ll be just fine..

 

[srimes]

When you bought your boat what were the triggers that caused you to pull out your checkbook?

The first step of boat design is a Statement Of Requirements. Defining the S.O.R. is good practice for purchasing as well. For me, #1 was trailerbility and #2 was an enclosed head for the wife . #3 was budget and I've been happy with what I got for the money.

People have crossed oceans on all kinds of flotsam, and people have sunk many seaworthy vessels. I've seen a 64 mustang go mudding just fine while a 4x4 pickup got stuck. So much comes down to the operator.

Your point on picking the right boat for the location is spot on. If my boating area was the gulf I would have picked a '59 Buick

 

[Red_Dog]

I'm in complete agreement about understanding where and how one intends to use your new-to-you boat. Most of use first timers are in the used market. Consequently, we have limited options regarding what boats are for sale and what fits our budget.

I am a first time boat buyer/owner. Before buying, I spent a year just looking through boat listings, with the goal of understanding the local market, what boats were generally available, and at what price ranges. Some general thoughts first, I knew that I would be sailing Lake Erie exclusively for the first couple, three years. It had been 41 years since I last sailed and in nothing larger than 18 feet. I was looking for a boat that I could sail and knock the rust off. The boat had to be forgiving of my stupid mistakes. I was looking in the 25 - 30 foot range. Specifically:

#1 - I had to feel confident and comfortable that I could sail the boat single-handed.
#2 - I wanted something comfortable, living wise, to spent a week on board.
#3 - While I am a fair weather sailor, I know how fast the weather on Lake Erie can change from a pleasant day to "WTF am I doing out here!" I had to feel comfortable that my skill level and the boat would get me home.
#4 - Budget. I didn't what to spent more than $15,000.00. I was willing to go to $20,000.00 for the THE boat.

I purchased a 1986 Hunter 28.5. Has my boat met my expectations? A resounding YES. I must say that it has exceeded my expectations. After all the going through the boat with the P.O., I stood behind the helm and looked forward, looked at the where and how the running rigging came back to the cockpit and locations of the winches. A nod of approval to myself and requirement #1 was met. I made a couple of adjustments to the running rigging and I was happy.

Comfortable to spent time on - oh - that is a requirement met and exceeded. Last season, I be came an accidental live-aboard. I'm intentional live-aboard this season. Over the winter added a small refrigerator. That was all it took to make the boat very livable. #2 down.

I've had a couple of days where things got dicey. But, kept my head, did what I needed to and the boat and I made it home. #3 has been met satisfactorily too date.

My purchase price was $10,000.00. After figuring in cost to move the cradle (I motored it to my marina), taxes, title and registration transfer, and initial insure cost, my purchase came to about $13,500.00. #4, budget met.

I knew, given the age of the boat, that the first two seasons would be expensive in terms catching up on past maintenance issues and such. I wasn't disappointed either.

I believe I went into buying a boat knowing how I would be using the boat and what I was looking for to accomplish my goals. I will not be looking to sell it off because I bought the wrong boat. I'm very, very happy with the boat a bought.

 

[MikeHoncho]

I’m no expert on open water sailing but I’ve been told by owners in my marina that their 22ft boat is a open water that has documented crossing. My response is “ yea but do you want to really be in it while it’s doing it?”

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I’m no expert on open water sailing but I’ve been told by owners in my marina that their 22ft boat is a open water that has documented crossing. My response is “ yea but do you want to really be in it while it’s doing it?”

And my wife has documented evidence she has cooked food but that doesn’t mean it’s safe to eat.

 

[Will Gilmore]

My wife and I have a family montra, "You work with what you got."

What I've noticed about most of the "newbie" questions about the oceanworthiness of a prospective boat, is the hopefulness in the question. They have the desire and a plan with some time and limited (usually) budget and have found a boat that appeals to them. Much of that appeal is in its accessibility.

It is often a sobering reality when the members here start with, 'Lots of boats can cross an ocean, with the right captain, and since you are asking the question, we have to assume, you don't have much sailing experience. Before we answer your question, tell us more about what this boat needs to do?'

By 'what this boat needs to do?', it is meant, 'what kind of sailor is this boat suppose to carry across the ocean?'

Often missed on the list of requirements is how newbie friendly is the boat. Yes, you can buy a boat that is well designed and fully equipped to go ocean sailing, but that still doesn't mean it is the right boat for a given sailor. Limited experience in a local area may not prepare a sailor for some of the complexities or subtleties of some designs.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[MikeHoncho]

And my wife has documented evidence she has cooked food but that doesn’t mean it’s safe to eat.

I’m going to leave you alone on that one partner. Good luck

 

[Don S/V ILLusion]

I’m going to leave you alone on that one partner. Good luck

She’ll never know I wrote that unless one of you guys throws me under the bus

 

[Will Gilmore]

She’ll never know I wrote that unless one of you guys throws me under the bus

nNNOoohhh! We would never

-Will (Dragonfly)