Iron vs Lead Keel Hunter 45DS

Graysailor · Sep 28, 2009

I thought that Hunter used lead. My 2008 41 is lead. I was told that lead is better. Not sure if this helps, but when I hauled out I had 4 coats of epoxy painted onto my lead keel. Then the bottom paint.

MsEmee · Sep 28, 2009

Hunter switched to the concrete/iron keels in 2008 on most of the boat lines. It was to save money since the price of lead went up. They also in my opinion went back to using cheap materials again in the interior and hardware; pre Henderson days. As a Hunter owner I am not happy with Hunter on this.. Look at the new Hunters next time you are the dealers or boat show.
Lead is more dense that iron/concrete therefore making the boat more stable. Need more weight in the keel using concrete/iron vs pure lead keels. Than you have the issues of different metals, SS lag bolts embedded in iron/concrete. For me it is a disaster waiting to happen.

Steve Dion · Sep 28, 2009

If you let your cast iron keel rust for ever, you will probably be dead for about 50 years before it becomes a problem. <g>

There are many other mfg. other than Hunter that use and have used cast iron keels.

I have never heard about the concrete so I am not sure there is any merit to this statement.

MsEmee · Sep 28, 2009

Steve Dion said:
If you let your cast iron keel rust for ever, you will probably be dead for about 50 years before it becomes a problem. <g>

There are many other mfg. other than Hunter that use and have used cast iron keels.

I have never heard about the concrete so I am not sure there is any merit to this statement.

Just because a very few manufactures are using this cheap way to put keels on doesn't make it right. They are sub standard period.

When I was the Annapolis boat show last year, the dealers there confirmed they were using a combination of concrete/iron keel.
I for one don't want any rust on my boat regardless if it outlives me. I don't need the headache of any more maintenance than I already have.
It is ploy by boat manufactures to use cheaper substandard materials to help keep cost down. I understand that somewhat, but Hunter's had a huge bad rep pre Hunderson days using these sub standard materials and boats coming apart. I fear they are going back to that manufacturing due to the economy. You couldn't give me a new Hunter. I love my 2006 model and won't trade it in or up for a new one.

tkwhalen · Sep 29, 2009

I had a 1985 40 with an iron keel it was a pain in the _ _ _ in the Spring. Every year I would grind the keel smooth and paint. No mechanical issues over the years but a maintenance nightmare. I now have a 2004 44AC with a lead keel and spring is a breeze. At this point I would avoid going back to iron at all costs.

Steve Dion · Sep 29, 2009

Kevin: I agree that the cast iron is a P.I.A., but a lot of the maintenance can be eliminated by sealing the keel with the Interlux process.

As I mentioned before there are many other mfg that use cast iron so I would not let that be a final determination on purchasing the vessel of your dreams.

Vinny · Sep 30, 2009

There have been some pretty well respected builders put some strange stuff in keels for weight. Catalina at some point used bricks in the C-27 if I remember correctly and C&C while not for weight used a 4"x4"x12" of exposed wood as the mast step support in some of their boats, a C&C Landfall 38 being one. Like that wasn't going to get wet and rot. As I have said before the C&C's have the same crack at the keel hull joint and if you really want it to never crack again a 10" glass mat patch several layers thick all around the joint will fix the problem. Grind the hull to glass, grind the keel to clean metal, caulk with 5200 then glass away and fair it out. Did this on my C&C 38 and the problem disappeared.

abe · Nov 7, 2009

There are reputable boat builders that use iron for other reasons than cost savings. The keel can be kept thinner and shaped with a bulb at the bottom that will offer less drag through the water and better balance. Hard to do that with lead since its not as strong. Jeanneu is on of those who uses iron keels.
I think they have an epoxy coating..not sure..that its virtually water proof.
This should not be a deal breaker. It would be interesting to know if a Hunter of the same model sails better with the lead keel design vs the iron design. Then, again this could all be b.s. told to me my the Jeanneu salesman a few years ago when I raised the same concerns you guys did.
abe

abe · Nov 7, 2009

There are reputable boat builders that use iron for other reasons than cost savings. The keel can be kept thinner and shaped with a bulb at the bottom that will offer less drag through the water and better balance. Hard to do that with lead since its not as strong. Jeanneu is on of those who uses iron keels.
I think they have an epoxy coating..not sure..that its virtually water proof.
This should not be a deal breaker. It would be interesting to know if a Hunter of the same model sails better with the lead keel design vs the iron design. Then, again this could all be b.s. told to me my the Jeanneu salesman a few years ago when I raised the same concerns you guys did.
abe

artboas · Nov 9, 2009

Hunter just recently switched to iron

Hunter ws one of the last production builders to switch from lead to iron. Beneteau, jenneau, etc. have been using iron forever. basicallly, it was a cost issue, which made it very difficult for Hunter to compete head to head. Frankly, most owners have no idea what the difference is, and Hunter decided that they needed to put their money in places where customers noticed, e.g interiors, etc.
The disadvantage of iron is that it is less dense, so your underwater profile is larger, hence more drag. The rust is a non issue from reliability or longevity. You can do all sorts of fancy coatings etc, but a coat of annual antifouling is more than enough.
My 49 was the last year they did lead keels, and the price of the lead alone was $30k. it is no wonder they needed to switch to iron.

rayjanine@aol.com said:
Like to get some thoughts concerning the new Hunter 45DS and the fact that the keel is cast iron in lieu of lead. This is the first time is a while that Hunter switched back to cast iron keels. I know that if it is taken care of it will last but I would like to know if the 44DS had lead or iron for a keel. My 2007 41DS had lead. If others have a fairly new boat (less than 5 years) and their keels are Iron I would appreciate your experience with keeping it maintained.

Thanks,

artboas · Nov 9, 2009

Not sure about maintenance concern

rayjanine@aol.com said:
I asked a well known keel manufacturer (Mars Keel in Canada) how much it would be to build a lead keel with a ballast of 7900 lbs in lieu of an iron keel for the Hunter 45DS. Their cost was approx. $15,000.00 and that did not include the installation costs but did include a delivery cost. This price was also based on me supplying them my old keel which is a hybrid iron on top and lead bulb below. I guess they would reuse the lead bulb to offset the cost of the new keel. The lead bulb on my hybrid weighs approx. 5700 lbs.

The new Catalina 445 uses a lead keel so I think even though it's more money it is surely worth it in less maintenance costs and thinner sections resulting in less drag. Hopefully Hunter will return to lead in the near future.

I agree that Catalina uses lead, but they are the last of the production builders to do so. I really don't believe there are any maintenance concerns other than rust streaks, and this is purely cosmetic.
The real issue is increased drag, but frankly the boats get up to hull sped in 10 knots of wind, and I'm certianly not racing with in mast furling and 3000 lbs of food, beer, 4 tool boxes, tv's, 11kw genset, etc., etc.
I'm pleased that I have one of the last lead keels that Hunter put on, but it wouldn't be a show stopper for me in the future. Frankly, the biggest issue I have is that all of the builders, Hunter included, have gone with full laminate interiors owing to the scarcity and cost of teak. That is one area that I would really like to see as an option in Hunter's boats.
My 40.5 had a beautiful teak interior, including floors. I was very, very lucky that my 49 was the last 49 built with a teak interior, and was the reason i grabbed it. Many people have been on my boat and stated that they would gladly pay for the additional cost, which I understand would be about $30k

seadaddler · Nov 10, 2009

Asked Hunter

HUNTER said that the price of lead more than doubled and would add some thing like $80.000 to the price of a new 49 hunter.
NICK

Richard Bryer · Nov 10, 2009

Re: Asked Hunter

The price of lead on the LME ( London Metals Exchange) this am is 1.0333 USD per lb
With a ballast weight of 12,544lbs, I would not think the price would be that high?

Vinny · Nov 10, 2009

Asked Hunter

Richard Bryer said:
The price of lead on the LME ( London Metals Exchange) this am is 1.0333 USD per lb
With a ballast weight of 12,544lbs, I would not think the price would be that high?

Your probably right. It seems like a lot of fluff. Maybe the fellow that answered that question is looking for a future in politics as a spin doctor.

Probably closer to $15k and let us not forget that the one on the boat now was not free. So possibly a $10k option or up grade would be reasonable. The problem for them is that unless it is a 10-20% production item it is not worth having as an option.

seadaddler · Nov 10, 2009

Repeating

I am only repeating what was told to me by Hunter when I asked why my 2007 H-36 was cast iron and not lead.
I did haul for winter storage in NY and did not notice any thing wrong or any rust and than last year hauled for new bottom paint here in Florida and again no rust,did not even know it was cast iron until mentioned on this forum,that's when I did call hunter to found out for sure,have not seen any thing different so far.
Nick

Steve Dion · Nov 10, 2009

There is a lot more cost than the price of the lead. Mars Metals is also located in Canada and I think that the exchange rate is such that a CN$ is worth more than US$.

Richard Bryer · Nov 10, 2009

I wish Steve, since I am going to your side of the border in a couple of weeks. No the cdn$ is about .95 USD- less when you pay the banks their piece. I think the opinion from Hunter was a synonom for " I dont know a good answer so I will make one up that will make the questioner go away and not bother me"
Happens all too often

Steve Dion · Nov 10, 2009

Richard Bryer said:
I wish Steve, since I am going to your side of the border in a couple of weeks. No the cdn$ is about .95 USD- less when you pay the banks their piece. I think the opinion from Hunter was a synonom for " I dont know a good answer so I will make one up that will make the questioner go away and not bother me"
Happens all too often

Richard: That may be the case today. Based on what has happened over the past few months things are changing and changing quickly.