iPad Pro vs. iPad Air 2 - Screen Visibility

Jackdaw · Aug 31, 2016

Great update Maine, thanks!

We share common concerns about iPad use, while also seeing these huge potential when used advantageously. On my Air2 I run iSailor almost exclusively, and I find their add-on weather service to deliver world-class forecasts I in our area, even to the point of getting the interactions of the lake breeze, predominant breeze, and islands correct a high percentage of the time.

For me, the biggest downfalls, even factoring in ad-hoc non-critical use cases are 1) overheating in the sun, 2) glare

Nice to see the bump in screen perforce on the pro.

CloudDiver · Aug 31, 2016

For screen glare I've always used the matte finish screen protectors on my iPad and all my iPhones. I've barley have any issues with direct sunlight visibility and of course they virtually eliminate fingerprints on the screen.
FYI, I don't use my iPad for navigation (little boat, no electronics yet), but I have used it and every iPhone I've had since 2007 in some pretty extreme environments (brutal heat, glaring sunlight). The matte screen protector does not make the screen perfectly visible in 100% sunlight, but I would say its a 98% improvement is cutting glare in all conditions. Since I have an older iPad I would venture to say that the retina screen upgrade to the iPad Pro would make it even that much more visible even in the glare conditions of pic 2 & 3 above if a matte screen protector were used. I've never felt that the screen protectors reduced the touch sensitivity of my screen in taping, sliding, pinching or whatever.
Also, battery life can be improved by turning off several unused data features (several of your Aps and other functions could be using GPS or otherwise 'looking' for cellular or wi-fi data sources). You have to turn off features for each individual Ap in settings rather than just switch off wi-fi. I'm not certain if switching to 'airplane' mode switches off internal GPS, they keep changing this in iOS updates.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Aug 31, 2016

Maine Sail said:
Heck Navionics still can't even figure out course up, a real shame if you ask me.......

Confused by this statement. I use course up all the time without issue.

The glare thing used to bother me a little when in New England because we would often sail with the bimini closed. Now in the Caribbean we never close the bimini so it's never an issue. The iPad is in a life proof case in a RAM mount at the helm.

I also don't see the big negatives to the iPad as the primary. We did about 6K nm through 8 countries this year without an issue. We did have to switch between Navionics and Garmin in some areas because of chart quality issues (you need Explorer Charts data for the Bahamas and only Garmin has it). Never had an overheat issue. Never had an accuracy issue. And the cost, we are running a gen 4 iPad, that's about 5 years old. It cost us $850 give or take when we bought it. Our boat has a 2001 gray scale chart plotter/radar from Raymarine. If I were to replace all of that it would be a hell of a lot more than $850. The radar still works fine. It was great for dodging squalls off of Dom Rep. I could maybe add a second unit at the helm to just add a chat plotter but it would be bulkier than the iPad and if would cost me a lot more money to have access to different data source (I.e. Garmin, Navionics, NOAA, etc.). So I guess I just don't see the draw backs, other than the screen glare that is mitigated by a bimini you might use anyways.

CloudDiver · Sep 1, 2016

Not intending to railroad the discussion, but I think this relates to Main Sail comment an JK's comments;
I see the potential for some rather progressive movement in the world of displays (which covers Chart plotters, fish finders, radar repeaters, wind indicators... you get the idea).
To put it bluntly, the makers of popular Marine electronics all need to get out of the business of manufacturing touchscreens, they are already losing ground and profits. So many people are going to kick and scream about now, but please follow me here.
Most of the major players have already (for at least a few years now) included tablet integration into their devices. This has delayed the effect of people moving to AP devices for chart plotting. What I see eventually, and I think this would be the most prudent course, is the complete elimination of touch screen displays and repeaters. The electronics package will be a compact hub that contains the software, major processing muscle, and is the hub for all connections of data input sources. The customer will then chose their own tablets (iOS or Android), as many as they like, which will act as the visual display and GUI anywhere on the vessel.
I'm making this argument from a business perspective. It is expensive to manufacture the displays and all their various mounts in low volumes (comparatively speaking to the quantity of smartphones and tablets made each year). If they stopped making the displays all together and went to just making the 'black box' it would cost a heck of a lot less, give greater mounting options, and most importantly (for the suits) a higher profit margin. Customers would likely upgrade their products more often if it were a better price. The black box can be swapped out, an SD card, or a simple software patch when connected to broadband wi-fi... Many customers would be much more willing to pay maybe $999 to $1499 just to swap out their black box, rather than $6K to replace the display and have a complicated install/re-fit.
To Main Sail's points out waterproofness or lack of, see the latest shock-proof and waterproof Samsung Galaxy S7 Active. The technology isn't perfected yet (most review say its not really 'waterproof'), but I only make the point that it is advancing.
As far using a tablet as primary means of navigation... I'm really not going to argue about accuracy or reliability, just keep a few points in mind; I was active duty Navy up until 2011 and it wasn't until 2013 (I believe) that Navy actually certified GPS as an official method of Navigation. We had the most expensive and elaborate radar integrated GPS chartplotters on every Navy ship and we all used them, but we'd run paper charts on the Nav table as the GPS wasn't considered 'official'. As to the accuracy of consumer level GPS when receiving a signal and triangulating a position to a tablet or phone... GPS today is about 100X more accurate than it used to be, and even as accurate as what we were using in the field (Iraq, Afghanistan in the mid 2000's). Civilian GPS used to be purposely 'toned down', those restrictions were lifted and even common handheld GPS units are now accurate to about 3 feet.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Sep 1, 2016

Maine Sail said:
Yes Navionics does do "course up" or "head up" but the chart rotates like it is raster with depth and words a rotating too. Take a look at how the soundings names etc. fail to re-draw in course or head up. They rotate with the chart as if it were a raster.. It is just a peeve of mine and entirely inexcusable in this day and age with vector charting.

Are you using Sonar Charts? All of my names, soundings, etc. rotate. Just checked and even using Navionics basic charts mine rotate too. Strange. I do agree with liking those aspects of vector better than raster.

Accuracy is not the issue I have, the A-GPS is quite accurate. The iPad is not IP rated (ingress protection), waterproof power/charging is risky at best (I've had two customers ruin their iPads ports charging underway) and relying on the third party case for a primary electronic aid is not something I am comfortable with. When I say "primary" I mean your only source of plotting.

I will give you the charging aspect for sure. I do wish someone would work that out. But it hasn't really been an issue for us. If we are traveling less than 8 hours during rain we just run on battery but I also don't have the screen on constantly. I turn it on every half our or so to check my compass bearing. If the passage is longer than 8-10 hours then we put the ipad under the dodger and we are tucked up there too. But then where we are now those longer passages mean being miles offshore and in thousands of feet of water so we aren't that concerned with looking at it all the time. But this is largely a function of our sailing grounds these days. When we were cruising in the northeast that was certainly a different story.

On the only source of plotting, I am in complete agreement but I would say that for what ever you choose as a primary. Technically we have 7 chart plotters on the boat. We have our iPad, the Raymarine fixed unit but that will only give us GPS coordinates since we don't have the map chips, two Garmin 76Cx (one in the ditch bag and one that is in the oven when it's not in use both stored with lithium batteries out but in the waterproof bag with them), two android phones with Navionics and one iPhone with Navionics. But we also have paper charts and practice dead reckoning and minor celestial navigation all of the time (it helps pass the time on passage).

But admittedly we are more diligent on this then the average cruiser. I think we turned on the iPad screen less than 20 times during our 28 hour Mona Passage and that was to check the GPS locations against our paper chart course. We were traveling with a catamaran that cost 3 times as much as our boat if not more. They got struck by lightening while we were anchored in Bouqueron, PR after we made our passage. They lost all of their electronics and didn't have paper charts on board. We had to help them cobble together a laptop and a phone and they were still nervous and followed us east along the southern coast until we got to a marina where they had all new electronics shipped. (Side note, Defender kicks ass and upgraded their shipping for free so that it only took two days to get three big boxes filled with about $8,000 of electronics to PR)

When I am doing the day charter work as a captain I will occasionally consult by phone for Navionics but we are sailing the same routes all the time so you just know the area.

My point is I don't think I disagree with you on not recommending iPads as the only device or means of navigation.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Sep 1, 2016

CloudDiver said:
As to the accuracy of consumer level GPS when receiving a signal and triangulating a position to a tablet or phone... GPS today is about 100X

I would disagree with this part of your comment. I had access to survey level GPS equipment before I quit working to go cruising. We had a Trimble backpack unit and basestation. The combination of the two would give you accuracy down to the inch. This equipment is used for construction site surveying and GIS mapping. I used a known USGS data point at the Hingham Shipyard (national historic monuments and locations often have these) to check the accuracy on these units. I found the Trimble backpack along to be accurate within a foot without the basestation and within a half an inch with the basestation setup. The Garmin 76Cx was accurate within 5-10 feet, the iPad was next at 10-15 feet, the iPhones came in last at about 35 feet. So I think consumer GPS is more accurate than you give it credit for.

druid · Sep 1, 2016

Doesn't an iPad cost about as much as a chartplotter? Why not just use a chartplotter? I use my Android tablet with Navionics when at home, or down below "planning" (=dreaming

). But I also use the tablet for games, reading (kindle app), surfing the net, etc. For actual navigation, I have a Garmin GPS and a compass and paper charts.

Maybe Raymarine or Garmin or... should make a "portable" chartplotter (ie with built-in battery and GPS antenna) to compete with the tablets.

druid

CloudDiver · Sep 1, 2016

JK_Boston_Catalina310 said:
I would disagree with this part of your comment. I had access to survey level GPS equipment before I quit working to go cruising. We had a Trimble backpack unit and basestation. The combination of the two would give you accuracy down to the inch. This equipment is used for construction site surveying and GIS mapping. I used a known USGS data point at the Hingham Shipyard (national historic monuments and locations often have these) to check the accuracy on these units. I found the Trimble backpack along to be accurate within a foot without the basestation and within a half an inch with the basestation setup. The Garmin 76Cx was accurate within 5-10 feet, the iPad was next at 10-15 feet, the iPhones came in last at about 35 feet. So I think consumer GPS is more accurate than you give it credit for.

Somehow the last sentence of my post got cut off. See revision... we are the same page.

CloudDiver · Sep 1, 2016

druid said:
Doesn't an iPad cost about as much as a chartplotter? Why not just use a chartplotter? I use my Android tablet with Navionics when at home, or down below "planning" (=dreaming ). But I also use the tablet for games, reading (kindle app), surfing the net, etc. For actual navigation, I have a Garmin GPS and a compass and paper charts.

Maybe Raymarine or Garmin or... should make a "portable" chartplotter (ie with built-in battery and GPS antenna) to compete with the tablets.

druid

Yes, iPads are expensive, but there are many Android devices that are not. Raymarine or Garmin could never produce a tablet that would compete with iOS or Android tablets, they could not produce or sell the volume required and the profit margin wouldn't be there.
Keep in mind, my arguments are coming from a business perspective... That's doesn't always fall in line with what consumers actually want or need.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Sep 1, 2016

This is on my Nexus 5X (Android Google phone) but I get the same result on my iPad.

JK_Boston_Catalina310 · Sep 1, 2016

Wait, just noticed my mistake. Since I wasn't moving it wasn't giving me a true course up. Jumped in the dingy and went running around Cane Garden Bay and I got the same result as you. This is going to bug the shit out of me now. Dam it! I never noticed it before but won't be able to ignore it now.

Thanks MS, looks like I will be getting iSailor if they have Caribbean coverage.

druid · Sep 1, 2016

CloudDiver said:
Yes, iPads are expensive, but there are many Android devices that are not. Raymarine or Garmin could never produce a tablet that would compete with iOS or Android tablets, they could not produce or sell the volume required and the profit margin wouldn't be there.
Keep in mind, my arguments are coming from a business perspective... That's doesn't always fall in line with what consumers actually want or need.

Here's one: http://www.westmarine.com/buy/b-g--vulcan-7-chartplotter--16478331?recordNum=3
You just need a connection to 12 VDC and you're Good To Go. Can't see how an iPad could compete with that as a chartplotter.

druid

dziedzicmj · Sep 1, 2016

@druid, There will always be those who believe that a consumer grade tablet is much better than dedicated chartplotter (and I don't even want to go about specific fruit-like devices). It does not matter what arguments you use; this is not necessarily a discussion about logic. And there will be those who believe otherwise. You cannot help it.

For each of those who swear by a dedicated Raymarine or Garmin chartplotter there is one who crossed the ocean with a tablet.

Keep in mind that for probably half of the sailors a chartplotter is way too much in the first place, because the lake they sail on does not, really, require much navigation (you see the shore all the time). Btw. I sail on a lake, so it wasn't meant as a demeaning comment (;-). And btw2. I don't use a tablet for any navigation (I have a small Garmin chartplotter and I love it).

Marek

Mark Maulden · Sep 1, 2016

I have a Raymarine E7D. During our 2 mo cruise to the Broughtons, it always had issues with the touchscreen not working during foggy WX. In fact, it often has issues...(RM recall performed). Then the manual unicontroller would send the cursor "somewhere" fast. I think the uni controller has some problems. But, my point is that the RM touchscreen doesnt work well but my ipad aire touchpad worked flawlessly. Of course the RM crapped out right when i needed it most during rapids/passes/narrows..touchscreen and manual control. Yells to the Admiral to get ipad to the helm now. Oh ya, this during times when the bow was not visible....so why can an ipad touchscreen work so well and plotter not? Texhnology should be pretty well known.....

iPad Pro vs. iPad Air 2 - Screen Visibility

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