Inverter questions

May 13, 2011
420
Hunter 40.5 Legend Jupiter
I am about to take off for some extended cruising and was aiming at installing an inverter, I would like to know how people have done this.

Currently I have 4 x 6v trojans wired up in series and parallel for my housebank, I'm about to add 2 x 100 water semi flexible solar panels to my bimini, I also utilise a honda generator when / if needed (I'm hoping the solar will pretty much cancel the use of that out)

Any inverter recommendations are welcome, I have a good charger on board so I don't need a combination. I do worry about battery drawdown should my shorepower cut off when at home and the inverter starts pulling my batteries down.

The way I would want to do it is to have it hardwired so that my electrical sockets onboard can be utilised when needed.

Would love to know how people have wired theirs (diagrams would be great) and thank you to everyone in advance
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Our inverter is simply connected to the house bank via a fuse. Then again we rarely use the inverter. I make coffee then fishing sometimes, but that's it so far. I wouldn't have it if it hadn't come with the boat.

You will certainly need to be careful with drawdown. Remember for every 120 volt amp you will be using 11 or 12 amps from the battery.
 
May 13, 2011
420
Hunter 40.5 Legend Jupiter
Perhaps that will be the simplest solution for me, I can wire it to my house bank at the electrical panel end and just mount the inverter under the nav desk I guess.
 
Feb 8, 2014
1,300
Columbia 36 Muskegon
My inverter's output is wired to the a.c. panel through a selector switch, I can select shore or inverter, but not both at the same time. Input is from the main dc breaker. I only turn the inverter when I'm actually using it, never when unattended.
I also use a portable generator which I plug into the shore power inlet, so it's the same as "shore" on the selector.
 
May 13, 2011
420
Hunter 40.5 Legend Jupiter
My inverter's output is wired to the a.c. panel through a selector switch, I can select shore or inverter, but not both at the same time. Input is from the main dc breaker. I only turn the inverter when I'm actually using it, never when unattended.
I also use a portable generator which I plug into the shore power inlet, so it's the same as "shore" on the selector.
This seems like the approach I was looking to do - can't believe i didn't think about the selector switch! (what switch do you use?) Thank you. With everything being right there at the panel I guess all to do now is figure out what inverter I should get and where to mount it.
 
Feb 8, 2014
1,300
Columbia 36 Muskegon
My selector's built into the panel, it's two double breakers with a Blue Seas slider that allows only one pair to be turned on at a time. They also have a rotary switch that would be easier to install.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
The way I would want to do it is to have it hardwired so that my electrical sockets onboard can be utilised when needed.

These types of inverters, I call them "automotive type" are not intended to be hard wired to your vessels AC system. Any inverter used on a vessel should meet Marine UL standards, specifically UL458, plus the marine supplement testing, which is referred to as SA or UL458-SA. Most inverter only options DO NOT have a marine UL rating & this means they have they been tested to marine standards.

Most "automotive type" inverters have a built in marine wired auto-transfer switch, & I currently know of none that do have one. Only a marine wired transfer switch, plus UL testing, makes them suitable for connection to the vessels existing AC system.

The easiest and least expensive way to add a stand-alone "automotive-type" inverter to your vessel is to simply add an inverter plus fuse, within 7" of house bank positive terminal, and preferably an ON/OFF battery switch as well, and just use the inverters built in outlet but DO NOT tie it into the existing AC system. You can use the existing on-inverter outlet or add one or more sub outlets that are tied only to the inverters built in outlet..

This keeps the inverter isolated or installed as a stand-alone unit from the ships AC system and becomes easier and significantly less costly to install.

This is an example of a "stand alone" inverter installation. This outlet is only served by the inverter and is 100% isolated from the vessels existing AC system. The remote has been installed right next to it and the outlet is clearly labeled "INVERTER"..


If you want to wire an inverter, one that not intended for feeding the vessels AC system, it into the ships AC system, it gets more complicated, more expensive. It requires an expensive transfer switch (Kraus & Naimer style) and a very, very solid understanding of marine grounding and neutral/ground isolation & bonding in regards to shore position and inverter position.


IMPORTANT:


If you're attempting to wire an inverter into your vessels AC system..

UNPLUGGED FROM SHORE POWER:
WHEN UNPLUGGED FROM SHORE POWER, AND USING THE INVERTER, THERE MUST BE AN AC NEUTRAL/GROUND CONNECTION/BOND ON-BOARD THE VESSEL

PLUGGED INTO SHORE POWER:
WHEN PLUGGED INTO SHORE POWER THERE CAN NOT BE AN ON-BOARD AC NEUTRAL/GROUND CONNECTION/BOND ON-BOARD THE VESSEL

AC SOURCES: (Inverter, Generator or Shore Power)
YOU CAN NEVER HAVE MORE THAN ONE AC SOURCE CAPABLE OF FEEDING THE AC PANEL AT ANY TIME


If you don't understand these three very, very important points please hire a professional who does.

The correct method for installing a marine inverter is to install one that is specifically designed to feed the vessels AC system and one that has been specifically built for this type of marine use. These are almost always a marine "inverter/charger" not a stand alone or isolated inverter only device.. Marine I/C's break neutral/ground when it should and bonds neutral/ground when it should and they do so automatically. These I/C's are more expensive because they are specifically designed and tested to meet Marine UL 458SA safety standards. Installation of any inverter should always follow ABYC standards. AC is deadly and the vast majority of inverter installations I see out there are NOT SAFE INSTALLATIONS..

Inverters not designed for marine use, that lack auto-transfer switches, must use a shore/inverter switch that transfers the AC connections properly.

On a small boat an isolated or stand alone inverter installation works best and is a keep it simple approach. Currently I know of only one stand alone inverter that meets marine UL standards, and that is the Xantrex ProWatt series. It would still require a transfer switch if you were to wire it to the ships AC system which I strongly advise against with an "automotive type" inverter...

If you are looking at just phone chargers, computers, small fans etc. then I would urge you to stick with 12V devices as they will be significantly more efficient charging on 12V than rather that converting from DC to AC than back to DC.. Efficiency gains can be as much as 40% improvement sticking with 12V..

12V sockets and USB insert chargers for your phones are dirt cheap these days. We charge everything aboard with the 12V system such as phones, iPads, iPods, iPhones, laptop, hand held VHF, GPS etc. etc....

Also keep in mind that inverters are energy hogs and your battery bank and charging system need to be able to support what ever inverter you choose.

Wiring & over-current protection must also be sized for the SURGE loads not just the maximum running watts. For example a 2000W inverter can pull over 4000W for a short duration when starting motors or other loads that have in-rush. Thus the wire is much larger than folks often assume it is.

A typical calculation looks like this for a small 800W microwave when accounting for battery voltage sag and an inverter inefficiency of about 20%:

1350W / 11.8V = 114.4A X 1.20 = 137.3A

Bump that to a 2000W load and..

2000W / 11.6V = 172.4A X 1.20 = 207A
 
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May 13, 2011
420
Hunter 40.5 Legend Jupiter
Maine

Really appreciate all the information you have put down for me and I'm sure it will be of great benefit to others too. We may have to do without the microwave and the tv.... It was only for the extremely rainy days as we are heading into hurricane season. I liked the idea of not going topside to get the generator out of the lazarette, plug it in, fire her up and listen to it rumble whenever we wanted to plug in something below.

If I do put in an inverter I will most likely go with that installation for the standalone outlets that you have posted - I do not want to get over complicated and potentially end up with a dangerous install, I read last night that even professionals get this wrong more often then not. If I have to run an extension cord from time to time its not the end of the world!

I guess on that side of things if I forego the microwave I can make do with a much smaller inverter - 1000w for example.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
We don't even use a microwave at home let alone on the boat. Get a 12V DC TV, less expensive than an inverter, and call it a day.....
 
May 13, 2011
420
Hunter 40.5 Legend Jupiter
We don't even use a microwave at home let alone on the boat. Get a 12V DC TV, less expensive than an inverter, and call it a day.....
Yes - I'm working on that contraption being phased out so maybe this is the final 'push'

Will have a look for a 12v tv today and see whats what - as I've changed to all LED lighting I wonder if I can wire it up to the cabin light wiring rather than put in a new breaker. Not the best practice I know but the wiring is there and running new wiring would be a challenge although I will most likely give it a shot first!

I'm currently sat reading about battery monitors on your site. The issue I have (there are many issues I have...) is that direct from my house bank I have my lewmar winch wired up so if I utilise a battery monitor down at my electrical panel it won't be seeing the load from the winch - it will see the after affects for sure. Would that be an issue or am I missing something / being thick... late night so could very well be both!
 
May 13, 2011
420
Hunter 40.5 Legend Jupiter
What do you use to charge your laptop from the 12v system? A small plug in inverter ?
 
Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Buying DC TV's is OK but they are much more expensive than AC ones. The latest LED TV's are about as power efficient as the DC ones. For example my older 15" LCD dc TV draws 2 dc amps and my new Samsung LED 32" TV draws 1/3 amp AC current. (3.3 dc amps) The small plug in inverters will run these AC units fine. Chief
 
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May 13, 2011
420
Hunter 40.5 Legend Jupiter
Buying DC TV's is OK but they are much more expensive than AC ones. The latest LED TV's are more power efficient than even DC ones. For example my older 15" LCD dc TV draws 2 dc amps and my new Samsung LED 32" TV draws 1/3 amp DC current. The small plug in inverters will run these AC units fine. Chief
I was just checking this on my boats LED tv also - 27watt average power consumption according to the manufacture which I believe comes out at .55amps if I round it up to 30. I run a 32 inch Samsung tv like yourself.

Good info - thank you
 
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Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
Redunculous: Note that I made corrections on my prior entry, but the point is that the newer AC TV sets draw much less than older ones. Chief
PS: Divide the voltage into the watts and result is amps Watts = Amps x Volts
 
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Nov 26, 2012
2,315
Catalina 250 Bodega Bay CA
redunculous: Reread your initial entry and your 200w solar choice seems to be about right. I use 160w on my Catalina 250 but do use a lot of AC appliances, coffee pot, TV, microwave, toaster, etc.. Chief
 
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Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
If you had posted this last year you could have had my OEM Xantrex Pro-Watt 3000W inverter, never used it. Converted the space into battery storage. The PO put a TV aboard to pacify his kid, that came off and got recycled at Best Buy. We do have an OEM microwave and find it useful for quickly pulling together a meal...so it warrants generator time when sailing.
 
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Feb 8, 2014
1,300
Columbia 36 Muskegon
I like my microwave and coffee maker, but those run off the Honda if I'm not plugged in. You'd need a really big battery bank to support either one off an inverter.
 
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Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
Other things to consider, If you have a water heater, Air conditioning, or reefer that runs on Shore power AC then you will probably NOT want to run those off the batteries through the inverter. Soooooo you need a split AC buss and a three circuit selector switch (two position but three circuits switched) And as MS said, if you do not KNOW what you are doing then get a pro that does.
 

MitchM

.
Jan 20, 2005
1,031
Nauticat 321 pilothouse 32 Erie PA
NB: Our profesional OEM install 1000 W mastervolt inverter cannot and will NOT run the 10,000 BTU air conditioner on our boat -- even with a huge house 8D battery bank . read Maine Sail's excellent post very carefully before you spend the time and money to have an ABYC certified marine electrician do this project. we hardly ever use the inverter, except to microwave some food --which we could heat on the propane stove if we weren't so lazy. if you intend to run AC best get a generator.