Insurance for 30 Year Old Sailboat

Ducati

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Nov 19, 2008
380
Boatless Boatless Annapolis
Looking to insure a 1989 30' MORC-Maxi sailboat ($25,000 value).
Survey gave it a "B+" rating. Insurance company are not willing to provide total replacement costs if the rig fails.
Said it would probably cost more than the boat, thus would write the boat off.
(Mast is a triple spreader with rod rigging)
Comments?
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Insurance companies are not going to pay more than the cost of boat even if something fails, like the mast, and the replacement cost is more than the value of the boat.

There are 2 basic types of hull insurance, Agreed Hull Value and Actual Hull Value. With Agreed Hull Value you and the insurance company (well mostly the insurance company) agree to a value that the boat is worth and if the boat is declared a Total Constructive Loss that is what you get. With Actual Hull Value, the insurance company will pay you the value of the boat just before the accident, which will likely be less than the price you paid for the boat. Under this policy the boat value is depreciated, under the Agreed Hull Value policy the boat is not depreciated. Needless to say the Agreed Hull Value policy is more expensive than the Actual Hull Value policy.

If you get a liability only policy and your boat is declared a total constructive loss, you get nothing.

Regardless of which type of policy you get, some things on your boat, such as rigging will be depreciated and you will get less than what you paid for the item or for its replacement cost.

Hull insurance will never make you whole again after a total constructive loss. It will pay for repairs and damage up to a reasonable percentage of the agreed value of the hull or the actual value.

Also, you will never get the insurance company to give you concrete definitive answer to any hypothetical question about loss or damage. Doing so might put them on the hook for something a poorly informed agent might say.

Expect to pay roughly 1-2% of the Agreed Hull Value for insurance. And like all insurance, your credit history and claims history will be a factor in the rate you pay.
 

HMT2

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Mar 20, 2014
899
Hunter 31 828 Shoreacres, TX
Progressive insures my 1983 Hunter, with full coverage with an agreed value of 19,000. They paid a claim of about 3,200 in 2014, with a deductible of $100, due to the “vanishing deductible “ I pay annually, this year was something like $800.. I’ve been very pleased.. Correction, I just looked it up $696 paid annually for 2019.No survey needed.
 
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Oct 19, 2017
7,732
O'Day 19 Littleton, NH
@HTM2, how long have you had this insurance?
My initial reaction to Ducati was the same as justsomeguy's, Liability only.
Insurance is a statistics game. They make money from your policy payments and pay out claims, as promised in the contract. Issues of contract interpretation aside, they are in business because the odds are well in their favor. It's insurance, not an investment.
I want to know how much are you going to save by only paying for the Liability and slipping the difference into some high yield investment fund? What is the likelihood that you could be your own insurance company, in a sense. How long before your, hopefully never realized, total replacement claim is paid for?

-Will (Dragonfly)
 

HMT2

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Mar 20, 2014
899
Hunter 31 828 Shoreacres, TX
@HTM2, how long have you had this insurance?
My initial reaction to Ducati was the same as justsomeguy's, Liability only.
Insurance is a statistics game. They make money from your policy payments and pay out claims, as promised in the contract. Issues of contract interpretation aside, they are in business because the odds are well in their favor. It's insurance, not an investment.
I want to know how much are you going to save by only paying for the Liability and slipping the difference into some high yield investment fund? What is the likelihood that you could be your own insurance company, in a sense. How long before your, hopefully never realized, total replacement claim is paid for?

-Will (Dragonfly)
Since we purchased the boat in 2010. I’m sure glad we didn’t do liability only. I crashed the boat trying to leave a narrow fairway in a 30 knot wind, it cost me $100. They paid for the repair, they were very prompt and courteous I was very impressed.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Going with liability only is poor advice. The big cost with insurance is liability, not hull insurance. The difference between liability only and full coverage is relatively small, the financial risks of going without hull insurance are pretty large. At $80+ an hour for yard bills and repairs, even a small amount of damage adds up quickly. If for some reason the boat is a total constructive loss the boat owner without hull insurance is screwed.

Consider a fairly common scenario. A boat goes aground on some rocks for whatever reason, engine failure, dragging anchor, poor navigation. If the boat has hull insurance the insurance company declares the boat a total constructive loss and they own the boat, they are responsible for getting off the rocks and properly disposed of. This could cost thousands of dollars. If there is no hull insurance the boat owner has lost the boat and is responsible for removing the damaged boat.

If the boat owner doesn't remove the damaged boat, it remains there as a blight on the environment or a government agency then removes the boat. If a government agency removes the boat, it is the taxpayers who are footing the bill. That's not responsible boating.

Another consequence of abandoned and derelict boats is the state's reaction to the problem. Both Florida and Georgia have enacted or are attempting to enact legislation that severely limits where and for how long boats can anchor. Georgia's new law is particularly egregious. Anchoring outside of a designated anchorage can result in criminal, not civil, penalties, big fines and potential for jail time.


Stepping off my soapbox.
 

TomY

Alden Forum Moderator
Jun 22, 2004
2,758
Alden 38' Challenger yawl Rockport Harbor
Looking to insure a 1989 30' MORC-Maxi sailboat ($25,000 value).
Survey gave it a "B+" rating. Insurance company are not willing to provide total replacement costs if the rig fails.
Said it would probably cost more than the boat, thus would write the boat off.
(Mast is a triple spreader with rod rigging)
Comments?
I carry insurance to cover the agreed value of a 59 year old boat. That value is based solely on an appraisal market value set by the surveyor after a routine, every 5-7 year insurance survey. That hull value has in fact risen over the past 15-18 years and my insurer has upped the coverage in kind.

In reality, nearly any severe accident will 'total' the boat. Replacement cost and actual value of a boat this old aren't even remotely related today.

Look to get coverage for liability and agreed hull value to cover small accidents, theft, that would cost a lot out of pocket.

Any major accident will total the boat and the company will likely pay 80% (varies) of the covered hull value, and take care of the hulk (wherever that is as Dave says).
 
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Mar 20, 2011
623
Hunter 31_83-87 New Orleans
Like HMT2 I also have an agreed value on my ‘84 H31. Personal preference due to lots of upgrades to the boat. Regardless of what type of coverage you choose, read and understand the fine print regarding exclusions. some policies exclude racing or racing for sailboats is allowed. Another exclusion is damages or failures occurring due to rust, corrosion or fatigue. In 30+ yer old boats there will always be some sort of rust or corrosion (whether visible or not) that the underwriter/claims inspector will deny coverage. I know this from personal experience so be sure to read and understand your exclusions.
 
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dLj

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Mar 23, 2017
3,370
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
I put hull insurance on my 1977 30 with an agreed upon value. It cost me a bit more but still wasn’t bad. About $800 a year. They didn’t ask for an inspection.
dj
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Like HMT2 I also have an agreed value on my ‘84 H31. Personal preference due to lots of upgrades to the boat. Regardless of what type of coverage you choose, read and understand the fine print regarding exclusions. some policies exclude racing or racing for sailboats is allowed. Another exclusion is damages or failures occurring due to rust, corrosion or fatigue. In 30+ yer old boats there will always be some sort of rust or corrosion (whether visible or not) that the underwriter/claims inspector will deny coverage. I know this from personal experience so be sure to read and understand your exclusions.
Make sure you have coverage for "Consequential Damages" this covers damage from things like rigging failure. They may not cover the shrouds if that caused the rig to fail, but they would cover damage to the deck from the rig falling down. Practical Sailor just did a piece on this.

I put hull insurance on my 1977 30 with an agreed upon value. It cost me a bit more but still wasn’t bad. About $800 a year. They didn’t ask for an inspection.
dj
That seems high. What insurance carrier. I have BoatUS/Geico 90K agreed hull value and 500K liability and a few other things for less than $900. Coverage for inland and coastal waters of US and Canada.
 

dLj

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Mar 23, 2017
3,370
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
Oh it might be more like $600 per I actually don’t remember.
dj
 

dLj

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Mar 23, 2017
3,370
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
That seems high. What insurance carrier. I have BoatUS/Geico 90K agreed hull value and 500K liability and a few other things for less than $900. Coverage for inland and coastal waters of US and Canada.
@dlochner :cool:Oh my, I just checked what my insurance policy costs and you are so right. It actually costs $492 per year... Sorry for the bad memory.

Yes, I have BoatUS/Geico.

dj
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
@dlochner :cool:Oh my, I just checked what my insurance policy costs and you are so right. It actually costs $492 per year... Sorry for the bad memory.

Yes, I have BoatUS/Geico.

dj
No need to be sorry. It's a good idea to not pay too much attention to the cost of boating. If we did we'd all be pretty depressed and wonder about our own mental health. ;)

Your cost seems to be about 2% of the AHV, assuming it is at 25K. Mine is about 1% of AHV, points to how little the hull insurance adds to the cost.
 
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Oct 22, 2014
20,989
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
My costs for a $29K value is similar, in the high $400's. My boat is 46 years old. Survey required to establish value. This included refitted Mast/standing rigging/running rigging/sails/electronics. The issue for your boat @Ducati is the "rod rigging". The insurance companies have received enough failure claims for rod rigging that they have decided to limit exposure based on age of the rigging.

A friend bought a boat in France and wanted to get insurance from Lloyds to sail his boat in the Med and then cross the Atlantic. 7 year old rod rigging. Was told no coverage until rigging was replaced.

You can ask the company why. I suspect the rigging will be the issue.
 
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dLj

.
Mar 23, 2017
3,370
Belliure 41 Sailing back to the Chesapeake
No need to be sorry. It's a good idea to not pay too much attention to the cost of boating. If we did we'd all be pretty depressed and wonder about our own mental health. ;)

Your cost seems to be about 2% of the AHV, assuming it is at 25K. Mine is about 1% of AHV, points to how little the hull insurance adds to the cost.
Hull cost was $10,200. I couldn't get a higher number doing the work on-line. There was an option to disagree with that maximum number, but I bet they would have then had a survey done of the boat itself. Don't really know just guessing. Maybe the cost is high (%-wise) due to the age of the boat?

dj
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Hull cost was $10,200. I couldn't get a higher number doing the work on-line. There was an option to disagree with that maximum number, but I bet they would have then had a survey done of the boat itself. Don't really know just guessing. Maybe the cost is high (%-wise) due to the age of the boat?

dj
Insurance companies have a good idea of what a boat's value is, especially a company like BoatUS/Geico as they insure thousands of boat. The insured value is based on sales and insured values of other boats, especially Hunters. They probably have access to the Broker side of Yachtworld, which has all the selling prices of the boats listed on Yachtworld.

Other factors that come into play are the boat owner's driving record, insurance claims record, credit score, and regional claims records.
 
Apr 8, 2010
1,942
Ericson Yachts Olson 34 28400 Portland OR
We have been with BoatUS for many years. We have an "Agreed on" value, for a constantly-maintained boat. I replaced the engine in 2018 and they upped the total value by the "in crate" value of the new engine with no hassle at all.
I find that the annual premium runs about $750 for $75K value. Not sure if this is similar to other insurers, but we stick with this one because they have a good reputation for loss coverage and because they are helpful when I have called them.
One bit of trivia about how insurance companies "value" a boat -- you want them to insure *your* boat and not some trashed-out one found on YW or CL. The actual replacement value, as you have maintained and equipped it, is the key thing.
 
Jan 11, 2014
11,321
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
We've drifted a bit astray of the OPs original question about his boat and rod rigging. @jssailem mentioned, it is likely the rod rigging the insurance company is concerned with. As I understand it, rod rigging is not subject to the same issues that wire rigging has (broken strands, corrosion inside swages, poor swages, etc.) however it has its own set of problems, primarily crevice corrosion and cracking at the heads. That and it is more expensive to replace.
 
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Mar 2, 2019
433
Oday 25 Milwaukee
Read the fine print . We have both boats covered with State Farm for an agreed upon amount . There is also a "rider" for the electronics .
Reading the fine print ,my issuer does not have to pay out if I either on purpose or accidently am the cause of a nuclear explosion. Further more the issuer of said policy is no longer liable if my boat is conscripted for military use and is taken from me by the U.S. government . I'm not making this up. Read your policy !!!