In-mast furling (again)

Stu Jackson · Oct 2, 2009

The issue is really EASE of furling

and our double line reefing is perhaps as easy as your roller furling - OK, OK, we have five lines to adjust (halyard and two each for the reefing points but really only have to deal with the first reef's two lines, the second reef's two lines can be adjusted later on).

I must admit, having only two lines to reef and being able to do it yourself really helps. I know how you feel, because I can do ours easily myself.

Nice report.

Deadline2 · Oct 2, 2009

My lament...

...is that Hunter had Selden build the original masts of 2001 too thin, limiting the size of the mainsail. I had to power up with a genoa.

Thinking of dropping down from a 10 oz. mainsail to something thinner but bigger that will still roll up into the mast. Anyone tried that?

Joe · Oct 3, 2009

It is a serious mistake to assume that because you are standing watch alone that you would also make major adjustments alone withouth waking one of the crew to help. You would have been much better off to reef the main down when you changed watch before releasing the off duty crew. In addition, it is unwise to stand watch alone if you have the manpower to avoid it.

Many, many offshore sailors do not have mainsail furling. They set watch schedules and establish strict rules about sail changes, reefing, weather changes, spotting traffic, helm time and a myriad of other possible scenarios. One of the primary rules is that no changes are made single handed and without communication to the skipper. You don't have to spend $15,000 on a mainsail reefing system to sail safely.

Do some research on standing watch and setting watch bills. You'll see what I mean.

seadaddler · Oct 3, 2009

Joe

Joe you are 100% correct in every point,when sailing down from NY to Florida
that were the rules setup for night watch.
But it sure made every one so happy even with proper crew when the weather changed in the middle of the night and we needed to reef every thing was done from the cockpit while tethered in nice and safe with my roller furling main.
Nick

CarlN · Oct 3, 2009

Count me as another person who considers properly rigged mainsail furling (either mast or boom) a huge safety factor offshore. My Selden mainsail furler:

A - Doesn't jam. Never has. Horror stories generally come from a) people who didn't know how to use them, b) early designs that didn't work very well and c) urban legend. It's not surprising that 20 years and thousands of mainsail furling systems have resulted in pretty bullet proof systems. The great majority of Oysters and Hallberg Rassys built in the last 10 years have them. All Amels have them on both main and mizzen. Sure I have to pay attention when I furl but the same was true of my old double line system. The only mainsail problem I've had offshore in 20 years was on my old conventionally rigged boat when the halyard shackle let go. It's too dangerous to go up a mast offshore - full stop.

B- No one leaves the safety of the cockpit for reefing - ever. Reefing the main is no harder or risky than adjusting a genoa sheet. Two people for "sail changes" is a good rule but not relevant for reefing a furling main. I've had several boats with double and single line reefing systems. They both required me to go on deck for part of the reefing operation. Something would snag or need adjustment. Maybe there's another system that never requires going on deck but I haven't found it.

C - Reefing is easy so I reef early. A big safety factor. I always reef when I see an approaching thunderstorm and roll it out when the coast is clear. In my old boat, reefing was harder so I'd wait - sometimes too long.

D - The thing I can't fix is the roach but a new mainsail with a better cut and 6ft vertical battens is pretty close. A little extra roach would help in light air but I get more benefit from the ability to reef for optimum helm balance and heel angle in normal winds.

Carl

Stu Jackson · Oct 3, 2009

Two on deck! NOT...

Two people for "sail changes" is a good rule but not relevant for reefing a furling main. I've had several boats with double and single line reefing systems. They both required me to go on deck for part of the reefing operation. Something would snag or need adjustment. Maybe there's another system that never requires going on deck but I haven't found it.

Our double line reefing system is almost as easy as John's in-mast furling. It works best when close hauled, sailing on the jib, let the traveler down and perhaps a bit of mainsheet out to back wind the main, drop the halyard to its premarked spot, and pull in the two reefing lines, one for the tack and one for the clew. Tighten the clew line with the handy cabintop winch. Tighten the main halyard a tad with the other cabintop winch. Done. No need to ever leave the cockpit. Nothing snags, the boom lines are inside the boom, although they'd work just as well if run along the boom.

I'm surprised that anyone these days has a reefing system that requires them to leave the cockpit. It only takes a little bit of line, a few blocks and a sheetstopper to run the lines aft, and the system becomes safe and sane.

John was just fine in not unnecessarily disturbing crew for something that can be done safely from the cockpit. Joe's rules are wise for other systems that require crew manhandling sails in older and more cumbersome reefing systems.

Alan · Oct 3, 2009

There is no denying that reefing from the cockpit is preferable to going on deck when it gets snotty. However, I have a single line reefing system on my conventionally rigged main and I too do not need to leave the comfort of the cockpit to reef. It was an unacceptable system as it came from the factory, but with the exchanging of a few blocks and upgrading line it works effortlessly now. More importantly I retain all the needed sail controls that are not available on roller furled mains.

I'm quite sure that many skippers are thrilled with their roller furled mains and much of the time they may in fact work properly. I would hate to be the one however, who has a problem furling in the sail as the wind increases. Being in a big blow with a jammed furler leaves little option to the skipper.

timvg · Oct 3, 2009

I have double line reefing and I do it all from the cockpit. The process takes me just a few minutes.

Patrick S/V Shangra-La · Oct 3, 2009

I too have the in mast furler for the main sail. I frequently single hand the boat. It is truly a secure feeling to know that I can adjust either sail from the security of the cockpit. It is also a good feeling to know I can make the main exactly the size I feel comfortable with instead of relying on two pre-selected sizes as determined by the reef points.

Another nice point is I do not have to find a spot to stow the sail cover. and I don't have to worry about tying the sail once I am done for the day
I don't believe I will own another boat with out the in mast furler. It is said you loose some performance, since I don't race this does not concern me.

seadaddler · Oct 3, 2009

It's Great

I love this forum everyone gets to add their 2 cents and I am always learning
more things about sailboats all the time.

Nick:dance:

Joe · Oct 3, 2009

Listen boys, I'm not saying it isn't cool to be able to reef your main by yourself from the cockpit. I encourage it.

But, my point was you should be able to reef your main when it's needed, whether you have a Selden in-mast set up, a double line reefing system or a ram's horn and clew line at the mast. Because if you can't do it by yourself, you need to wake someone up to help, but you need to do it and not worry about disturbing them. This is a condition any crew should accept. The same goes with weather changes or unidentified traffic. You need another pair of eyes, and probably hands.

If you only have 2 or 3 crew, then it makes sense to rotate 1 crew per watch. But if you're crew numbers 6 or more then you should have 2 per watch, and they should rotate the helm every hour, while the other observes. With less than six you can overlap the watches so each crewmember gets at least 4-6 hours sleep per session.

Stu Jackson · Oct 3, 2009

On Watch schedules

Joe, amen to that, and thanks.

Do you have any good refer3ences for the various watch regimens that different people use. I recall a Cruising World article soem time agao, haven't yet checked their archives.

Joe · Oct 3, 2009

stu...

Stu Jackson said:
Joe, amen to that, and thanks.

Do you have any good refer3ences for the various watch regimens that different people use. I recall a Cruising World article soem time agao, haven't yet checked their archives.

I do remember the CW article... maybe it's what got me on this theme, but for the liife of me I can't remember how far back it was.... I'll try a search on their website.

Anyway, I perused a few of my sailing tomes and found an excellent explanation of the various types of watch systems and their applications in what else? but the "Annapolis Book of Seamanship" check "Watch systems" in the index.

I also found a discussion of watch keeping in Roger Marshall's "Sail Better" ppg. 108-109.

Here's a discussion on the "cruisers' log" forum on watchkeeping: http://www.cruiserlog.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11737

This article is really good, very detailed: http://www.iomsailing.info/watchkeeping_systems.htm

Here's a quote from that link regarding watch keeping responsibilities:

"The skipper must remind the watch keeper that he can be called if there is anything the watch is unsure of (e.g. predicting the movements of another vessel, or spotting an unexpected navigational mark or light).

"The watch keeper has the right to call all hands if the situation demands, and it is the responsibility of all below to respond by turning up on deck immediately"

Stu Jackson · Oct 4, 2009

Thanks, Joe, if I find it I'll let you know.

In-mast furling (again)

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