looking for a chart of heel angle for various wind speeds and points of sail for a catalina 30.
any idea where to find
any idea where to find
ideal heel angle
- Thread starter jeffery burghardt
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Jeff, Everyone must make a chart for their boat and crew. You set out sailing and as the boat heels you listen for squeaks and squeals. Ease the sheets and record the angle of heal until the squeals stop. change course 20 degrees and repeat the squeak and squeal check. continue until you have recorded all points of sail. Then you will have a chart for your boat and crew. 
Boat speed
If you get the boat heeled over too far, at some point speed will decrease, and most of the time you will notice an increase in weather helm. Unless your racing, or seeing how fast you can go, most find 10 to 15 degrees to be the comfort zone.
If you get the boat heeled over too far, at some point speed will decrease, and most of the time you will notice an increase in weather helm. Unless your racing, or seeing how fast you can go, most find 10 to 15 degrees to be the comfort zone.
Feel the boat - it will tell you, as Ross said, when it is happy. It is sort of a zen thing. You can feel when a boat is not moving as well a it could/should. Using the knot meter, watching the sails, and feeling the helm and motion of the boat can get your boat trimmed up, in my opinion, better than a chart. One problem with the chart method is summed up in an old Indian saying, "You can never set your foot in the same stream twice"
Weather helm, boat speed
I'm with Nice & Easy. If the rig is tuned correctly, weather helm means that I am slowing down the boat with too much rudder. Average boat speed is the other indicator. Average because there may be a pulse of speed when a gust hits, but sailing with excessive heal and helm slows us down through the whole gust-easing cycle.
On our boat, 15 degrees is the groove. More than that, and the boat is telling us to tune/reef. And reefing in those conditions means speed and comfort.
There are two issues that cause heeling despite the best set/tuning of the sails. If the rig is tuned for too much weather helm, or the sails are losing their shape, we get more healing at slower speeds. (That reminds me, after 10 years, it's time to have our sailmaker take a look at our sails!)
The real wisdom is with the squeal approach, though. I just know too many captains who lament "she just doesn't want to go out with me." I am very lucky that the Admiral wants to sail as much as I do. But a big part of that long term success is listening to her concerns, and addressing them, somehow. I do know how to address her objections to excessive heal (in her mind, not mine.) Over time, I also figured out that the boat is faster when I do. Turns out she was right!
Interesting observations: I used to race Sunfish, and they are definitely faster when sailed flat. And I just read an article in Sailing World on the Moth class. The modern foil Moths are fastest when healed 15 degrees to windward on a beat, and 5 degrees to windward on a broad reach. The lack of rail meat probably keeps us from finding the real groove on our keel boats!
I'm with Nice & Easy. If the rig is tuned correctly, weather helm means that I am slowing down the boat with too much rudder. Average boat speed is the other indicator. Average because there may be a pulse of speed when a gust hits, but sailing with excessive heal and helm slows us down through the whole gust-easing cycle.
On our boat, 15 degrees is the groove. More than that, and the boat is telling us to tune/reef. And reefing in those conditions means speed and comfort.
There are two issues that cause heeling despite the best set/tuning of the sails. If the rig is tuned for too much weather helm, or the sails are losing their shape, we get more healing at slower speeds. (That reminds me, after 10 years, it's time to have our sailmaker take a look at our sails!)
The real wisdom is with the squeal approach, though. I just know too many captains who lament "she just doesn't want to go out with me." I am very lucky that the Admiral wants to sail as much as I do. But a big part of that long term success is listening to her concerns, and addressing them, somehow. I do know how to address her objections to excessive heal (in her mind, not mine.) Over time, I also figured out that the boat is faster when I do. Turns out she was right!
Interesting observations: I used to race Sunfish, and they are definitely faster when sailed flat. And I just read an article in Sailing World on the Moth class. The modern foil Moths are fastest when healed 15 degrees to windward on a beat, and 5 degrees to windward on a broad reach. The lack of rail meat probably keeps us from finding the real groove on our keel boats!
Sunfish are planning boats as are most "board boats'. Obviously with a planning boat you want to get up on plan ASAP. I don't usually worry about the angle of heel. I trim my sails for speed and the heel takes care of itself. If heeling becomes an issue it might be time to reef. Fortunately my wife loves to sail and I never hear squeals.
I've sailed and raced for 35 years and find my "zen" quite lacking. Fortunately, VMG (velocity made good) measurements are available from even cruising instruments these days. The problem with going by feel is that heeling puts your rail closer to the water - like a go-cart, it feels faster the closer you get to the "road". It's also almost impossible to feel leeway. Looking astern at your wake give and indication but not one that is easy to translate to a speed number. In every case I've measured VMG the boat is faster with less heal. This is especially true of more modern boats with flatter underbody's. My last two boats have been fastest with heal at 10%.
The part of feel that does work is helm feel. Many people sail with way too much weather helm. That rudder drag is like a sea anchor. The "groove" is when the helm is balanced (or has just a touch of weather helm). That is indeed good.
I do agree that experimenting (and building a chart for reference) is key. The chart should include wind speed, different sail combinations, apparent wind angle, and sea states. For example, I sail 4 degrees lower in a moderate sea to help punch through the waves. 10 degrees lower in a nasty sea.
Carl
The part of feel that does work is helm feel. Many people sail with way too much weather helm. That rudder drag is like a sea anchor. The "groove" is when the helm is balanced (or has just a touch of weather helm). That is indeed good.
I do agree that experimenting (and building a chart for reference) is key. The chart should include wind speed, different sail combinations, apparent wind angle, and sea states. For example, I sail 4 degrees lower in a moderate sea to help punch through the waves. 10 degrees lower in a nasty sea.
Carl
23-24 degrees maximum according to the 2007 Americap VPP polars.
You can get polars for your boat from US Sailing. Jim Teeters is the guy to talk to.
The old VPP showed maximum heel for best performance as 26-27 degrees.
I haven't had new polars run under the latest VPP that they are using for ORR certificates yet.
The way it works is you trim for maximum power until the boat heels 20 degrees or so, then start de-powering the boat when average heel is above 23 degrees. For a standard rig C30 this is full sail with crew on the rail up to 16 knots true, at 20 true you have to reef at some angles. The main and Genoa are at full power to 10 knots true (start of white caps). Flatten the sails a bit between 10 and 12 true. The sails should be flat by the time you see 16 true.
For best VMG upwind the heel is slightly less. 19-21 degrees. You only allow the boat to heel to 23-24 on reaching courses.
Randy
Again it is the sails!!!! Worry about the best trim of the sails and the heel will take care of itself under normal conditions. Then as the wind gets too strong you reef. They are intimately related as you control the angle of heel by.....adjusting the sails. Then it is asking what is your goal??? Maximize speed during the lulls or reduce heel during the gusts. If we bury the rail from time to time but are moving nicely between gusts we are usually happy. But at night or in rough seas we might adjust for better control during the gusts. http://www.wb-sails.fi/news/SailTrimSim/TrimSimFrames.htm
thanks for the response. interesting that i got a wide variety of responses. last year was my first with the catalina and thru experimenting, it seemed to sail fastest upwind with around 15 degree heel. at 20 degree and above definitly seemed slower. only measured a few times though.
She the catalina 30 isdefinteley happiest atbetween 14 and 18 deg, however the capri modeli found was fastest from 16 to 20 deg? go figure atleast in anything above a broad reach, running the caprilikestobe flat with everybody on the backkindov dancingthe cockpit tillshe starts tosurf, then it gets really fun running, the normal 30 did not like running much at all, i figured it was the salon and head and v berth weightand added house topsides...plus food fuel beer and motor... we sailed the capri soheeled once a freind got out and hanging from his life line surfed the keel! that was neat
I still don't understand the question. Heel angle is not something you adjust while sailing(at least without a crew big enough to sit on the rail). You adjust the sails for performance and then the heel angle takes care of itself. Is this a when do I reef question?? Since my usual crew is my 120# wife shifting weight is not an option. Should I adjust my sails to induce more heel ??? I am not trying to be argumentative. I just don't understand. Do you deliberately change sail trim to induce heel??? Doesn't the loss of sail efficency hurt performance more than a change of heel helps?? The only way I know to induce heel is to trim my sails too tight. I have done this on small sailboats and it always hurts performance.
heel
The poster simply asked for advice on the optimum angle of heel for his particular boat. And yes.... you can impart heel by trimming in the sails. You can counter-act heel by shifting crew weight to the windward rail. There are some times where you might use crew weight to impart heel to windward such as downwind sailing in very light air.
Every boat has a sweet spot. Heel angle and performance vary with hull design. Some boats sail fastest when they're kept flat.. planing dinghies for example. Other boats will perform better with the boat heeled over to some extent. This allows the shape of the hull and it's foil to create more lift... again it is dependent on the design. In some designs, heeling the boat actually increases the waterline length... making them potentially faster.
The poster simply asked for advice on the optimum angle of heel for his particular boat. And yes.... you can impart heel by trimming in the sails. You can counter-act heel by shifting crew weight to the windward rail. There are some times where you might use crew weight to impart heel to windward such as downwind sailing in very light air.
I've read that you can use crew to induce heel when going upwind in ight airs too. Something like you induce heel to get the sails to let gravity "flop" them to a curved or deeper draft so the wind doesn't have to work to get them to the right shape and can just flow over them. Lots that I have read but never tried though...
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