I still don’t quite get rule #2…

Jan 7, 2011
4,790
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Greg, are you still blaming this Progressive video for your lack of very basic knowledge? (how is it "too simple"?) I could not be more surprised and I don't get it. :facepalm: How long have you been sailing? Have you never had a basic course?
Been sailing for 10 years. :facepalm:

Never had a basic course, :facepalm:

Never had a collision. :facepalm:

Not blaming anyone. :facepalm:

Just haven’t learned the rule, and am trying to. :facepalm:


Greg
 
Jan 7, 2011
4,790
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
Greg... The ColRegs are pretty clear. They are literal in their construction. I try not to read too much into the rules. And I always remember the prime rules if there is any doubt...

RULE 7 Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
RULE 8
Action to Avoid Collision
(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
Thanks @jssailem…

Those I have down pretty well…


Greg
 
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Oct 26, 2008
6,085
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
Been sailing for 10 years. :facepalm:

Never had a basic course, :facepalm:

Never had a collision. :facepalm:

Not blaming anyone. :facepalm:

Just haven’t learned the rule, and am trying to. :facepalm:


Greg
Fair enough! I will admit that if you simply use common sense to avoid collisions, there is not any reason to be overly concerned about the "rules". It is just as easy to take simple and early evasive action on the wide open spaces of the water. Nobody criticizes another boater who shows an early intention to stay clear no matter who is stand-on.
 
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Jul 19, 2013
384
Pearson 31-2 Boston
Fair enough! I will admit that if you simply use common sense to avoid collisions, there is not any reason to be overly concerned about the "rules". It is just as easy to take simple and early evasive action on the wide open spaces of the water. Nobody criticizes another boater who shows an early intention to stay clear no matter who is stand-on.
You have to be kidding!

As a licensed captain and an ASA instructor for over ten years, I strongly disagree with your comments and sentiment. For the safe operation of a vessel, there is no substitute for knowledge of and adherence to the standard rules of operation. Suggesting that each operator should do whatever seems safe to him or her, I call as extremely bad advice. Common sense is no suitable substitute for knowledge. If we could rely on common sense to guide us in safe boating, well then, why have any rules at all?

I argue that an un-informed boater who uses his "common sense' to operate a vessel, would be more dangerous than an knowledgeable boater who simply likes to get his way, and chooses on occasion to bend rules. Eventually the common sense boater will endup in a situation where a maneuver what seems common sense to him results in some recreation of the Andrea Doria, and the best is simply that his insurance company eats a significant loss, the worse result being criminal exposure for reckless endangerment. Both the insurance companies and the legal establishment will immediately and utterly reject any assertion of "common sense" as an explanation for an accident.
 
Jan 30, 2012
1,123
Nor'Sea 27 "Kiwanda" Portland/ Anacortes
Not so fast my friend. Surely the rules are worthwhile as you say but do not so glibly discard the value of common sense behavior.

The common sense doctrine Scott describes is at the very heart of Colreg Rule 2. To the point - we do not ignore Rule 2 - just because following another rule is convenient or appealing.

A good example is the obvious conflict in Rules 9 and 15 - narrow channel and crossing. Courts and commentators have never been able to successfully reconcile these rules. In a most recent case the UK Supreme Court (Admiralty) has essentially held that Rule 15 supersedes Rule 9. The interesting part is that had just one of the vessels used common sense despite the rules - the collision would not have occurred. (I gave two other examples to illustrate this very point earlier in this discussion.)

I am sure you are entitled to your views considering your list of qualifications. I don't ask you to agree here - just that you consider Scott's comments and how Rule 2 works. After over 40 years studying and applying the Colregs as a lawyer, I can say that Scott's comments are plenty worthwhile considering.

Charles
 
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Feb 26, 2004
22,782
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
As many of you know, I read a lot, here and on other boating forums. Consequently, I come across and read many of these COLREGS topics. The one consistent theme that recurs all too often is people missing the point. Often folks confuse common sense with the purpose of the rules. And those who support the rules are often too heavy in their dismissal of the folks who prudently employ common sense. Both of these groups often talk past each other.

What does COLREGS stand for? It's an abbreviation or acronym and the first part is COLLISION AVOIDANCE.

On cruisersforum, there is a frequent contributor, Dockhead, who yearly has sailed between the Isle of Wright in the UK to the Baltic. He writes well and is knowledgeable and, I believe, trustworthy. He started this thread (Thread for Basic COLREGS Questions - Cruisers & Sailing Forums) as a result of another one about crossing situations. Because of where he sails, he has to cross the southern end of the North Sea, with heavy commercial traffic at the east end of the English Channel and the traffic to the Netherlands and Germany.

One of the first things he wrote in his introductory post in that thread is this:

Unlike right of way, the requirements to stand-on and give-way under the COLREGS is not a permanent status which applies during all phases of a crossing. These obligations arise only after (a) vessels are in sight of one another; and (b) a risk of collision exists. And this order of maneuvering ends when either the stand-on vessel has a reasonable doubt as to the efficacy of the give-way vessel's maneuver, or action by the stand-on vessel is required.

My conclusion is that Scotty and Charles could both be partly correct.

Why?

Scotty says "use common sense" and don't get into "close situations" where you have to apply the rules.

Charles says, however, that once you do, and you may well get into one or more, you ought to know and apply the rules.

These two opinions are NOT mutually exclusive, they should both exist for each of us. Some of us can sail for years and not get into potential collision situations at all, even on relatively active waterways, where common sense has kept you out of risk of collision to begin with because you were ahead of the game by avoiding it for starters. This could be because of traffic density or be as simple as everybody else knowing the rules AND applying common sense so that potential collisions do not even begin to develop. Some of us sail where potential collisions are unavoidable because of traffic levels, local sailing realities (SF Bay comes to mind for me), or the incompetence of other boaters.

But I believe that Dockhead's intro is very important because he addreses the key issue sometimes missed in these discussions. The rules have to be applied if a risk of collision exists between two vessels in sight of each other.

But all the applications of common sense, alone, may not avoid the risk of collision, in which case it is imperative to know the rules to avoid it if & when it does occur.

You may enjoy reading that CF thread, if just to see how many of the points in this discussion are repeated and refuted and discussed. Enjoy.
 
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Jul 27, 2011
5,009
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
One common-sense element I wish people would adopt is to let the other guy know early one’s intention to give way. This is done by making an early and highly visible alteration of the course. Not to keep bearing on strong as the give way boat toward a crossing where there is clear risk of collision.