I still don’t quite get rule #2…

[capta]

The key is rules apply to motorboats with exceptions for sail driven vessels and towed etc.

Sorry, it just isn't all that simple. Motor vessels can under a number of situations, have priority over sailing vessels. And for most pleasure craft operators who also sail lakes, bays, rivers, estuaries, any of the nation's ICWs and/or harbors within US waters, there are TWO sets of ColRegs that they should know, and understand. The International ColRegs concern vessels outside of a line beyond most features that include any of the above, and the US Inland ColRegs for those inside.
Darn, more book learning...lol.

 

[Sailfanatic]

Not at all.
Falling off a bit on the part of the port tack boat is much easier.
And it also keeps the port tack boat going in its intended direction.
I sailed for decades on SF Bay and came across this situation every single day. Wind from the west, port tack heading north from TI to Richmond, starboard boats heading south from Richmond to SF. Hundreds of crossing situations.
"...the only safe evasion action..." - the word only is simply not true.

That comment was made in response to always giving way i.e. a stand on vessel choosing to give way, for example:

...
There is a way out. Follow two rules and you are safe. Rule 1 Buy liability insurance and if there is a collision let the insurance companies work it out. Rule 2 to avoid involvement in Rule 1 give way to other boats no matter the rules.

.I crossed up the example situation, which should have been stated as:
"For example, if sailing and you are on STARBOARD tack and crossing a PORT tack boat, IF THE STARBOARD BOAT WANTS TO GIVE WAY, the only safe evasion action would be to tack to PORT well in advance of the port tack boat's approach.'

If in this case, the standon vessel on starboard want to give-way anddoes not tack, but instead bears off, then most likely you will have two sailboats on a head-on collision course, rapidly closing. The powerboat rules actually have a rule to prevent a stand on boat to starboard from bearing off
17.c.: A power-driven vessel which takes action in a crossing situation in accordance with subparagraph (a)(ii) of this Rule to avoid collision with another power-driven vessel shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, not alter course to port for a vessel on her own port side.

 

[rgranger]

... keep a radio handy, and to pay attention, ...

I use the VHF to hail marinas all of the time but when out on the water, I mostly use it for entertainment by listening to the chatter and drama that often floats over the VHF. However!!! I've had two experiences where the VHF really made the day better... or at least more interesting.

In May 2012, I took a 21' swing keel sailboat on a 4-day cruise in the Pamlico Sound (North Carolina Outer Banks). As I was entering the channel to Silver Lake (the bay for Ocracoke Island) I raised my keel and started the O.B. The channel was dredged and it is very shoal on either side of the channel. A few minutes into the channel the ferry to Swan Quarter started pushing out. It was big and took up almost the entire channel so with my 9" of draft I decided to just nudge out of the channel entirely and I exited stage right. The ferry captain hailed me on the VHF in a frantic voice "LITTLE SAILBOAT! LITTLE SAILBOAT! VEER HARD TO PORT!" So I did and moved across the channel to the port side and slipped out of the channel again. The ferry captain then hailed me a second time "LITTLE SAILBOAT! LITTLE SAILBOAT! YOU ARE OUT OF THE CHANNEL AGAIN!"

I didn't know why he wanted me to veer to port and should have asked a question but I figured he was on home turf and had a good reason.

It was nice to see that he had my back and I felt bad that I had caused him concern. I later learned that about 6 months earlier a 40' Bene had wreaked on the sandbar near there and was a total loss so... I guess it was fresh in his mind.

I replied to the ferry captian "I'm drawing only 9". Which side would you like me to pass?" He replied "Roger! Pass to port".

The second time I was about a year later. I was on a beam reach from Tangier Island to Kilmarnok in a steady and stiff breeze. This was in a Balboa 26. I was having a blast. Another sailboat captian hailed me and said something like.... "Hey, I know you are stand on but I am having electrical failures and would like to cross your path. I need to get to shore quickly" I didn't ask questions and just changed course and let him go by.

 

[Tally Ho]

Sailboats, as long as they’re both purely under sail, do have their own COLREGS rule. It’s rule 12 and it does have the port tack/starboard tack and Windward/leeward provisions. Like sailfanatic said above the video is targeted for power boaters where that rule doesn’t apply.

Ok…thanks. I think I understand these…
And

Thanks for clarifying that these are applicable for sailboats under sail.

Greg

 

[Scott T-Bird]

You've got to be kidding me! I find it hard to believe that this video can cause any confusion. It has clear definitions, it is concise and it doesn't have any misleading information. Clearly, it has the perspective of a power boat. If you are motoring your sailboat and approaching a stbd/port crossing, with another boat and you are confused by Rule #2, (or Rule #1 before that) then you are in trouble! If you are sailing your boat and confused by stbd tack/port tack crossings and/or windward/leeward crossings with another sailboat under sail, you aren't a sailor. If you are unfamiliar with the distinctions between a sailboat under engine power and sailboats under sail power, you aren't a sailor. If you are driving a motorboat, you don't really need to know anything about the interactions between sailboats as long as you follow Rule #1. It is very obvious that the video does not address sailing protocol. I can't see any reason why this video should cause any confusion.

 

[cb32863]

You've got to be kidding me! I find it hard to believe that this video can cause any confusion. It has clear definitions, it is concise and it doesn't have any misleading information. Clearly, it has the perspective of a power boat. If you are motoring your sailboat and approaching a stbd/port crossing, with another boat and you are confused by Rule #2, (or Rule #1 before that) then you are in trouble! If you are sailing your boat and confused by stbd tack/port tack crossings and/or windward/leeward crossings with another sailboat under sail, you aren't a sailor. If you are unfamiliar with the distinctions between a sailboat under engine power and sailboats under sail power, you aren't a sailor. If you are driving a motorboat, you don't really need to know anything about the interactions between sailboats as long as you follow Rule #1. It is very obvious that the video does not address sailing protocol. I can't see any reason why this video should cause any confusion.

I feel your pain Scott which, is why I ignored this thread at the beginning. I knew it would become this "discussion". Morbid curiosity made me have a look. 4 page discussion on this..... 4 pages.....

 

[rgranger]

I feel your pain Scott which, is why I ignored this thread at the beginning. I knew it would become this "discussion". Morbid curiosity made me have a look. 4 page discussion on this..... 4 pages.....

But what if two sailboats are both on a slightly different port tack.... on approach heeled over rather far... and you can see that one boat has pettit bottom paint showing and the other has duralux? Which one is the burdened vessel then? And does it matter that the duralux boat has a danforth anchor hanging on its bow instead of a CQR?

 

[Calif. Ted]

 

[Hello Below]

If you are unfamiliar with the distinctions between a sailboat under engine power and sailboats under sail power, you aren't a sailor.

However the following COLREG Rules if not open to interpterion then certainly open to discussion.
Rule 3 (c): The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
- Question: How about when the transmission is not engaged, ie in neutral but can be engages at a moments notice? Is the propelling machinery being used if only to charge the batteries?
Rule 9(b): A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
- Question: Therefore if following a traffic lane is a motor vessel the stand on vessel even if a sailing vessel is crossing a traffic lane?
Rule 12(b): For the purposes of this Rule, the windward side shall be deemed to be the side opposite to that on which the mainsail is carried.
- Question: Therefore when downwind sailing the position of the mainsail is the determining factor not necessarily the tack the sailing vessel is on. Yes/No?

No answer required but out of curiosity I often wonder how many of us abide by Rule 25(e): A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.

 

[jssailem]

Rule 3 (c): The term sailing vessel means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
- Question: How about when the transmission is not engaged, ie in neutral but can be engages at a moments notice? Is the propelling machinery being used if only to charge the batteries?

NO. The intent (as I understand) "BEING USED" refers to: Is the propelling machinery in use propelling the boat.
By the statement "in neutral" it is not being used to propel the boat.

By the conditions you identify, the boat is being propelled by sail.

Rule 9(b): A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.
- Question: Therefore if following a traffic lane is a motor vessel the stand on vessel even if a sailing vessel is crossing a traffic lane?

Why is Rule 9(b) in the Regs. and what is a "Traffic Lane"
It is best to examine the rules as printed and not to modify the rules test to fit your inquiry.
Rule 9 - Narrow Channels

Home | Navigation Center

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel ‹ which › ‹‹ that ›› can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
The intent (as I understand) is to clarify the stand on vessel when in restricted water limiting the ability of a vessel too maneuver. The narrow channel or fairway. being the limiting factor. A sail boat is not afforded unlimited stand on privilege when in restricted waters under rule 9 (b)

 

[Hello Below]

Why is Rule 9(b) in the Regs. and what is a "Traffic Lane"
It is best to examine the rules as printed and not to modify the rules test to fit your inquiry.
Rule 9 - Narrow Channels
Amalgamated International & U.S. Inland Navigation Rules (b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel ‹ which › ‹‹ that ›› can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.
The intent (as I understand) is to clarify the stand on vessel when in restricted water limiting the ability of a vessel too maneuver. The narrow channel or fairway. being the limiting factor. A sail boat is not afforded unlimited stand on privilege when in restricted waters under rule 9 (b)

You are correct John. it is not Rule 9(b) as I wrote but rather Rule 10(j)

Rule 10 (j): A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

 

[Crusty Ol Salt]

Rule 10 (j): A vessel of less than 20 metres in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane.

I absolutely love living and boating at the mouth of the Chesapeake Bay. There are several things boats need to understand.
Navigational channels are crossed at 90° to the channel.
A ship that is 1000' long takes a long time to stop sometimes miles.
The navy (Worlds largest naval base Norfolk Virginia) does not want you crossing the channel for several miles in front of one of their vessels.
Coal ships (when empty) and aircraft carriers have an exposed surface area 60' x 1000' and sudden winds and gust can cause navigational issues.
While Rule 10 (j) may not make sense to some sailing on Lake Reno it makes perfect since to me.

 

[Wm. Gill]

Here is a good little reminder video from Progressive Insurance about boating safety.

I like the reference and reminder that sailboats under sail have priority…

But Rule #2 seems hard for me to get my head around…thankfully I don’t sail in a crowded area, and I almost always stay out of the way if there is someone near me…but I should really learn the rule…stand on vessel vs give way vessel. The video doesn’t mention starboard tack… just left and right…but whose left or right?

What is your take on this video rule 2 and how do you explain to a rookie who has the right away when 2 boats under sail are on an intersecting (collision) course?

Greg

I can't understand why they chose this phrasing. It is confusing. Think of clock positions. Your bow is 12:00 O'clock and everything from 12:00 to 4:00 O'clock is a "stand on" vessel. If the approaching vessel is in your 4:00 to 6:00 O'clock you are in his 12:00 to 4:00 O'clock making you the "stand on vessel", but remember rule #1, it's like I taught motorcyclists for years "It doesn't matter if the other guy is wrong, you don't want to be 'dead right.'"

 

[LloydB]

They are the stand on when approaching pass port to port. when overtaking pass starboard to their port, always expect their boat is being piloted by a 500 pound gorilla named Karen.

 

[Sailfanatic]

...

No answer required but out of curiosity I often wonder how many of us abide by Rule 25(e): A vessel proceeding under sail when also being propelled by machinery shall exhibit forward where it can best be seen a conical shape, apex downwards.

I do. Note that for Inland waters, it is a requirement only for vessels 12 metres or longer.
PS While I think this rule has quite limited utility, I do think in the case of a collision, failure to have followed any rule will affect the insurance companies proportionment of responsibility.

 

[WayneH]

In shipping lanes, I only have two rules.

1) He who has the grossest tonnage has right of way.
2) When fiberglass meets steel, fiberglass always loses.

These have kept my boat safe from large metal objects but do nothing about small fiberglass penile extensions.

 

[Tom J]

Maybe we have discussed this topic enough, but I would offer one example of what can happen when someone totally disregards the rules of the road. I was motoring north on Pine Island Sound in FL one day, approaching a dog leg in the channel, when I noticed a large motor cruiser heading my way miss the mark and proceed into the shallows. When he realized his mistake, he made a hard turn to starboard and proceeded down the channel on the "wrong" side. No big deal, I've had motorboats do this to me a number of times, so I moved over to left side of the channel, giving him plenty of room. As he got closer to me, he suddenly turned in front of me, maybe 25 yards off my bow, and I made a panicked turn to starboard. As he crossed my bow, I blew the air horn five times. He didn't like this, and reached down under the helm seat of his fly bridge and brandished a shotgun at us as he passed by. Just a reminder that they are out there, so be careful!

 

[Tally Ho]

I thank everyone (except maybe @Scott T-Bird ) for their thoughts, comments and insights. I sail often, but almost always in areas where there is little to no traffic, and a very large Lake Michigan with lots of room to maneuver. I certainly stay away from the Laker boats carrying ore and gravel, and the tugs pushing large strings of barges. And formthe most part, power boats are not an issue (they know to go around a slow sailboat inmost cases). The only thing I was unsure about were the rules when 2 sailboats, not racing, are on intersecting paths…the Progressive video seemed almost too simple. And apparently it is…I reread the ColRegs rule #12, and will be thinking through that when I am on the water next season.

Thanks again.

Greg

 

[jssailem]

Greg... The ColRegs are pretty clear. They are literal in their construction. I try not to read too much into the rules. And I always remember the prime rules if there is any doubt...

RULE 7 Risk of Collision
(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.
RULE 8
Action to Avoid Collision
(a) Any action taken to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Greg, are you still blaming this Progressive video for your lack of very basic knowledge? (how is it "too simple"?) I could not be more surprised and I don't get it. How long have you been sailing? Have you never had a basic course?