I just can't get no release!

Jan 11, 2014
12,356
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
I can't really think of any use where a fiddle block is superior to a double block. I think the only reason they exist is because they look less clunky and more streamlined.
Fiddle blocks are easier to reave correctly and are less prone to twisting and fouling the wraps. Two triple blocks are the hardest to reave correctly and can become twisted. They work well in some applications, like a vang, because the blocks are always aligned. In mainsheet application the lower and upper blocks can get twisted around which interferes with their operation.

The Harken website has diagrams of common systems.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,627
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Fiddle blocks are easier to reave correctly and are less prone to twisting and fouling the wraps. Two triple blocks are the hardest to reave correctly and can become twisted. They work well in some applications, like a vang, because the blocks are always aligned. In mainsheet application the lower and upper blocks can get twisted around which interferes with their operation.

The Harken website has diagrams of common systems.
Absolutely every performance multi uses triple blocks on the mainsheet, and sometimes quad blocks. If they are twisting they are installed incorrectly... period. I have had them on four boats, some did twist because of installation mistakes, and they were easily fixed. If they don't work perfectly and release like lightning, these boats will capsize.

Not that my set-up (post 7) is twin triples rigged for 7:1 and there is only the correct 90 degree off-set. Release is instant, from anywhere I would sit, without using my foot :)yikes:) or shifting position.
 
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DArcy

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Feb 11, 2017
1,754
Islander Freeport 36 Ottawa
I agree with thinwater, adjust the angle of the cleat. It will make a huge difference. I had a 4:1 with fiddle blocks on my C&C27 main sheet which was a bit challenging in bigger wind but it worked and I could always release when needed.
 
Sep 24, 2018
3,107
Catalina 30 MKIII Chicago
I checked last night. I have a double block on the boom and this same ratcheting fiddle block on the traveler. What kind of blocks are less prone to twisting up the lines? In my case the fiddle swivels every time I pull from a different angle and the double pretty much stays still
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Mar 26, 2011
3,627
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
Any block that is properly reeved (you will need to look that up for the specific design) will work. Preferably, do not use a swivel block on the top if the blocks are more than 3 feet apart. Only the bottom. This will prevent twist. Also be carefull how you coil the tail (better yet don't--flake the line in a corner). Some of the most severely twisted tackles I've seen resulted from repeated incorrect coiling (it is easy to add a twist when you coil).
 
Sep 24, 2018
3,107
Catalina 30 MKIII Chicago
Also be carefull how you coil the tail (better yet don't--flake the line in a corner). Some of the most severely twisted tackles I've seen resulted from repeated incorrect coiling (it is easy to add a twist when you coil).
That's pretty interesting. I didn't realize lines had that much of a memory effect
 
Mar 20, 2015
3,177
C&C 30 Mk1 Winnipeg
That's pretty interesting. I didn't realize lines had that much of a memory effect
They have the same "problem" as electrical cables when the user hasnt been coiling them so that it doesn't induce twist. The rope or cable type alters the severity but they all develop it if not consistently coiled correctly
 
Sep 24, 2018
3,107
Catalina 30 MKIII Chicago
Oh yes it does! I own an AV company. I can't tell you how many times I've asked people to recoil a cable properly :banghead:
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,356
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Back in my racing days I worked the pit on a J35. Much of the race was spent removing twists from the lines that the trimmers and others induced. When the command came to "blow the vang" on downwind leg that line better run free. Not to mention a spinnaker drop on a tight mark rounding.

Back to the original question. If the fiddle block is a Harken, try adjusting the cam cleat angle before spending a lot of money on new lines and blocks. Also consider the amount of line to be used. If the purchase is increased from 4:1 to 6:1 the amount of line that needs be brought in will increase by 50% (or is it 33%) either way this adds to the spaghetti on the cockpit sole and adds work to the mainsheet trimmer especially after dumping the mainsheet.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,627
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
...If the purchase is increased from 4:1 to 6:1 the amount of line that needs be brought in will increase by 50% (or is it 33%) either way this adds to the spaghetti on the cockpit sole and adds work to the mainsheet trimmer especially after dumping the mainsheet.
Yes and no. There is 1/3 more line to haul, but it's 1/3 easier to haul. Thinking another way, is it easier to 10 pull ups, or just 7 pull ups wearing an 80-pound back pack? Obviously, the latter is impossible for 99% of us (the former is probably impossible for most of us...). If there is not enough purchase, you cannot pull the line in under max load to release it. You do NOT release a cam cleat under load by push the rope out of the cams. It may jam. You don't cleat it by pushing the rope in. It won't go. You release or cleat by guiding the rope in or out of the cams while the rope is being pulled in. That is how they work properly. Thus, you must always have just a little more purchase than you need. You should also be able to hand hold the tail under peak load for a few minutes without tiring discomfort. Again, this is how these systems are designed to work.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,356
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Yes and no. There is 1/3 more line to haul, but it's 1/3 easier to haul. Thinking another way, is it easier to 10 pull ups, or just 7 pull ups wearing an 80-pound back pack? Obviously, the latter is impossible for 99% of us (the former is probably impossible for most of us...). If there is not enough purchase, you cannot pull the line in under max load to release it. You do NOT release a cam cleat under load by push the rope out of the cams. It may jam. You don't cleat it by pushing the rope in. It won't go. You release or cleat by guiding the rope in or out of the cams while the rope is being pulled in. That is how they work properly. Thus, you must always have just a little more purchase than you need. You should also be able to hand hold the tail under peak load for a few minutes without tiring discomfort. Again, this is how these systems are designed to work.
As always on a boat, it is a compromise. What works for one person, doesn't work for another. We run into trouble when we look for silver bullets. The consequences of a slow release on an O'Day 25 are not as severe as those on a high performance cat. The design criteria are also important. The OP said it the main was hard to release under "heavy loads," what is a heavy load, is it 15 knots?, 20? 30? How often is the boat sailed in those conditions? Are there other factors such as poor sail trim, poor rig tuning, or blown out sails that contribute to excessive heeling? If those issues are addressed then the current sheeting system maybe adequate in the vast majority of the time.

Threads like this often end up with multiple ideas and thoughts reminiscent of a poorly whipped bitter end of a mainsheet. Let me try to organize some of the thoughts here.

Conditions:
  • How often is the boat sailed in "heavy conditions"?
  • What are the heavy conditions?
  • How old are the sails? Old baggy mains can cause excessive heeling.
  • How is the rig tuned?
  • How much experience does the skipper have sailing in a variety of conditions?
  • What is the physical condition of the crew?
Solutions:
  • Adjust cleat angle
  • Use traveler to control main
  • Reduce friction in the system. Over sized sheets or worn blocks can make trimming more difficult
  • Don't sail when the dogs are blowing off the chains.
  • Can cockpit ergonomics be changed to make the work easier?
  • Add purchase with additional blocks
And then there are the tradeoffs.
  • Would money spent on a new mainsheet system be better spent on a new main sail?
  • What are the secondary effects of any changes? For example, adding purchase may make sailing in lighter conditions less pleasant due to the extra line and work to trim the sail?
  • Perhaps sitting at dock is preferable when it's blowing like stink?
Hope this is helpful. If this was my problem, I'd start with the least expensive options and then look for the biggest bang for the buck. At the top of the list would be cleat adjustment followed by sail assessment and perhaps a new main.
 
Mar 26, 2011
3,627
Corsair F-24 MK I Deale, MD
...The OP said it the main was hard to release under "heavy loads," what is a heavy load, is it 15 knots?, 20? 30? How often is the boat sailed in those conditions? Are there other factors such as poor sail trim, poor rig tuning, or blown out sails that contribute to excessive heeling? If those issues are addressed then the current sheeting system maybe adequate in the vast majority of the time.

Threads like this often end up with multiple ideas and thoughts reminiscent of a poorly whipped bitter end of a mainsheet. Let me try to organize some of the thoughts here.

Conditions:
  • How often is the boat sailed in "heavy conditions"?
  • What are the heavy conditions?
  • How old are the sails? Old baggy mains can cause excessive heeling.
  • How is the rig tuned?
  • How much experience does the skipper have sailing in a variety of conditions?
  • What is the physical condition of the crew?
Solutions:
  • Adjust cleat angle
  • Use traveler to control main
  • Reduce friction in the system. Over sized sheets or worn blocks can make trimming more difficult
  • Don't sail when the dogs are blowing off the chains.
  • Can cockpit ergonomics be changed to make the work easier?
  • Add purchase with additional blocks
And then there are the tradeoffs.
  • Would money spent on a new mainsheet system be better spent on a new main sail?
  • What are the secondary effects of any changes? For example, adding purchase may make sailing in lighter conditions less pleasant due to the extra line and work to trim the sail?
  • Perhaps sitting at dock is preferable when it's blowing like stink?
Hope this is helpful. If this was my problem, I'd start with the least expensive options and then look for the biggest bang for the buck. At the top of the list would be cleat adjustment followed by sail assessment and perhaps a new main.
I would argue that a solution that works most of the time, but not in heavy weather is not a solution I would want, and in terms of safety, not a solution at all. Who wants a boat that becomes hard to control when the wind gets up, perhaps just into the fun range? Impossible to control well when surprised by conditions stronger than forecast? We're not talking storms, we are only talking about the ability to drive the boat hard to get away from a lee shore or similar. Even if you don't like sailing in a blow, it has a funny way of happening, once in a while. And perhaps, just maybe, one of the reasons you dislike wind is that the boat didn't handle well last time.

I really don't see a proper mainsheets system, such as used on Hobie 16s 45 years ago, as a big investment, a big change, or anything cutting edge. Really.

My first suggestion was to change the cleat angle. That is where you start.
 
Sep 24, 2018
3,107
Catalina 30 MKIII Chicago
Also consider the amount of line to be used
The current line came off of a Cat 27 Tall Rig. There's a ridiculous amount of extra line that I've been meaning to cut off. The dual line setup on those boats is really cool. One good example of not having to compromise
what is a heavy load, is it 15 knots?, 20? 30? How often is the boat sailed in those conditions?
20-30knts. We love the heavy winds. We seem to be averaging one heavy wind day per week this season :biggrin:
What are the heavy conditions?
20-30knts. Typically upto 5ft waves
How old are the sails? Old baggy mains can cause excessive heeling.
Probably 10-15 years old. Still somewhat crisp. I'm guessing it's about halfway through its' life. Judging by shear amount of stuff that was on the boat when purchased, the PO saw it as a floating family RV
How is the rig tuned?
Loos gauge? What's that?
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,356
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
If you are sailing in those conditions on a weekly basis then more purchase is probably a good idea. Also pay attention to friction, even though a block might be advertised as suitable for ½" line it may work better with a smaller diameter line. Blocks do wear and become stiffer and seize.

Ergonomics is also important, where you sit, lead angles for lines and cleats. Try different positions to see what works for you and your crew.

Even though the cloth is still crispy, the sail may have stretched. If there is a loft nearby take it to them and hang it horizontally, this will show any stretch.

Your original dealt with mainsheet loads. The initial response was to increase the power of the mainsheet which only addresses one side of the equation, the other side is to reduce the load on the mainsheet. The problem you described, excessive heel is a result of the boat being overpowered. The obvious solution to being overpowered is to not sail when it is blowing 20-30 (which at my age would get my vote ;)). Sail trim and reefing are also answers and perhaps more to your liking. If the boat is rounding up and heeling too much, then it is past time to reef the mainsail. Depending on the point of sail, most of our boats start wanting a reef at around 15 knots true wind and 20 knots apparent. Certainly by the time wind reaches the high twenties, the Jib should be small and a second reef in the main should be on your mind.

When the wind is in the low 20s with occasional gusts higher, then flattening the sail and inducing more twist will help to depower the main and reduce pressure on mainsheet. The outhaul should be tight, the traveler high and the mainsheet eased. This will provide power to bash through the waves and reduce heeling and rounding up. The article below is a pretty good summary on inducing sail twist in different conditions.

Selden Mast has a good rig tuning guide. While a Loos Gauge is not essential, it makes the job easier and setting repeatable.

Remember, most people can learn to sail in a few hours with decent instruction. Mastering the art of sailing takes a lifetime.

Enjoy.

 
Sep 24, 2018
3,107
Catalina 30 MKIII Chicago
Just reporting back after analyzing during a sail with 15-25knts wind. Even under lighter conditions the main was hard to release. Definitely need more purchase. As for the angle of the cam cleat, I do agree that under most situations that the highest position is beneficial except for downwind sailing. It becomes rather awkward when the mainsheet is tilted leeward (and near impossible to reach if traveler is all the way leeward). As we all know the load on the mainsheet is much lighter going downwind most of the time so I think it's beneficial to angle it more. I'm not trying to re-start a topic that has been thoroughly discussed, just reporting back
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,356
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Even under lighter conditions the main was hard to release. Definitely need more purchase.
If it is hard to release in lighter air, the chief suspect would be friction. If the sheaves in the blocks don't run smoothly and easily, then that is a major source of your problem. Remove the line from the blocks, spin the sheave quickly, it should spin for several seconds. Rotate it slowly, does it feel smooth or bumpy?