I have a solution for the C22 keel to keep it from closing on a knockdown
- Thread starter dgreen1991
- Start date
OK, what is wrong with inserting the safety pin or a bolt to secure the keel in place? There should be a hole going through the keel trunk and the upper part of the keel just above the pivot bolt so that a safety bolt or pin can be inserted to hold the keel in place. Many remove the safety pin when sailing in shallow water to prevent a hard grounding from destroying the keel trunk but when in foul weather it needs to be inserted to prevent it from jackknifing and taking away stability and destroying the keel trunk. I don't think your idea will work the wire angles seem wrong and the fixtures will likely not withstand the dynamic loads.
I was thinking the wire angles could be a factor. The keel fixture is definitely strong enough and I have winched my boat onto the bunks with great load. The only one I was questioning was the bow U bolt and the force will be different downward and rearward. I think that would work to the design advantage. The wire would have a split clear tube on it so it would not rub the boat. I may experiment this summer. I have never had an issue. I have sailed my C22 since 1999. I think I can prove the angle and operation by winching it up with the cable connected (to a point). stress could be measured with my loose guage. The advantage of this over the through bolt is NO MODIFICATION required. Again the amount of weight would be 250 max and maybe less with the keel bolt tight and that would be completely upside down, less if at lower angles. I have the ears on my keel as well as the upgraded keel bronze fitting support. I guess the only way is to prove it. The wire could be thinner than the keel cable. The use of this in my thinking was during longer off shore coastal sailing time. It could be added and removed as needed. It would cause some drag and catch weeds. Just unhook at bow and shake off is my thought on this.
In actuality, the keel falling back is really not a problem, and the solution is easy, if it's getting that rough, drop the sails and hoist the iron genny, and your crew will thank you......
Don
Don
True, I was thinking of an unfortunate unplanned offshore incident. Crew would be nice, I sail alone 95% of the time. I have read about a couple of C22 sinkings is what got me thinking. In my view, I have messed up if I am in a situation that requires using it. Also, like another poster, I want to complete the loop in a few more years in my C22. As simple as it is, if it will work, It would be nice to have if things got bad in open ocean, one less worry. Guess I will try it this summer.
Attachments
No I have not rolled my C22. Just read about a couple of sinkings. The wire where it could rub the boat would be in vinyl tubing. Not sure if I would ever need it. I have been offshore in over 30 and have sailed my C22 since 1999. Just thought it could be a simple improvement if I can prove it would work. Might come in useful for peace of mind during those long coastal FAIRWEATHER offshore sails. If a storm comes and you are 5NM out, that is an hour trip to get in if there is an entrance perpendicular to you, longer if not. Weather can change quickly, you know, like weather.
Is this an early April Fool's joke??
Beyond the obvious impracticality already mentioned, a line secured to the bow there as shown would actually pull the keel closed, not keep it open. It would have to be below the pivot to hold it open.
Beyond the obvious impracticality already mentioned, a line secured to the bow there as shown would actually pull the keel closed, not keep it open. It would have to be below the pivot to hold it open.
My venture 22 has an additional through bolt that locks the keel (475lbs) in place once it is lowered? If a C22 doesn't have this option maybe you could mod the keel trunk to accept a locking bolt?
For the sake of discussion, every C-22 sinking that I've read or heard about over the years was during a race. The racers sail theses boats hard, REAL HARD! And they sail with a 150 up front, and they don't reef the main. The only time I had our original C-22's spreaders in the water was during a race, with a genoa, and a full main, and it rounded up and came back up on her feet. The racers experience knock-downs, ripped sails, cracked rudders, and broken masts fairly routinely. During last years C-22 Nationals we took water over the cockpit combings twice, but then again, we were sailing the boat hard,(heck, it wasn't my boat), with a mylar genoa and a full main. I would never sail my own boat that hard. Your boat should be set up to allow you to instantly dump the main, and/or the headsail. Some of the older boats mainsheet block that's attached to the traveler, you had to pull down on the mainsheet to loosen it. Very dangerous rigging set-up in my opinion. Pulling up to disengage the mainsheet is not only natural, but safer. When you're sitting up on the combing, there is no way to quickly release the mainsheet with those older blocks that came with the boats. I sail 99% of the time with just a jib, in fact, I don't even own a genoa anymore. Sailing with just a jib makes the boat so much easier to handle, and I don't have to worry about being over powered. I agree, safety is a concern that we all need to practice, But cruisers with all our added ballast from all the junk we think we have to have onboard, really adds a lot more to the ballast, and ultimately the stability of the boat.
Don
Don
My boat has the old traveler set up. I have never had a problem releasing the mainsheet ever. Just pull down, never failed for me in 15 plus years. That is one reason I have not changed it. As far as this post, I just wanted to see if anyone else had tried to come up with a solution and WOULD IT WORK. I love the design of the swing keel and it would in fact be better if it would stay all the way out in a rollover. Weather can sometimes turn in a heartbeat. If you have ever been sideways in a blow in the trough of two waves, you might wanna have a better lockdown keel system, I know I would. I was just thinking this is a weak point in the design and it would be cool to solve it. That was what I was trying to do. Come up with a simple solution. THOUGH NOT NEEDED 99.5% of the time. There was a C22 owner (The Boat) who modified his with a pin in the keel trunk. Not sure if it leaked or whether it would handle the forces involved in a rollover. I just like problem solving and making things better. I am not sold that it would not work. That is what I was posting for. I did design a lithium battery pack for my ebike that the batteries can be removed without tools that people keep telling me I need to patent. I am currently experimenting with a lipo pack for my C22. I am pretty good at solving problems. Just want to solve this one.
It would be attached where the keel cable connects, which is way below the pivot point. Not an April fools joke, just trying to brainstorm to solve a POSSIBLE problem with the keel slamming closed and sinking during a near rollover or complete rollover. Is it really that stupid? What is your solution? Will it work was the question? Not sure drag would be that bad as the cable is thin and angled toward the back of the boat. I have heard people say you can't do this or that. What I have found is they can't do this or that. What obvious impracticality? Please do share facts.
You've got this all wrong, sorry. And you looking for an answer to a problem that does not exist. Now to your 'solution', if you attach that line to the keel BELOW the pivot point (which you have shown), see below, the distance from the bow to the keel will be SHORTER when the keel is up vs down. Tightening that line will PULL THE KEEL CLOSED. At the very least it will do nothing to keep it open.
The chafing will rub and damage your hull.
The whole thing is unnecessary, as Don notes the danger to sinking is downflooding through open hatches in a knock-down, NOT the keel retracting back.
I used to own a C22. Are you really asking me? OK it's stupid. Sorry but it is. What are you worried about? Looks like you're having a great time sailing. Carry on!
My solution is to bolt the keel down. As Curious mentioned, the Venture 22 had a second bolt (other than the bolt the keel swings on) that held the keel down (you took it out before lifting the keel). That was plenty to keep the keel down the times I was knocked down on my Venture 22. If the C22 does not have this bolt, the solution *I* would present is to put one in. Way simpler and less prone to failure than yours.
druid
Please. Before you do ANYTHING to try and secure that keel in place in a grounding, Google 'second order lever' and see how much force will be on any retaining pin (and the lightweight trunk) when you run the tip of the keel into something hard at speed. A quick napkin calculation tells me you'll tear up the inside of your boat.
The original Catalina 'locking' part was designed to slip. For VERY GOOD REASON.
The original Catalina 'locking' part was designed to slip. For VERY GOOD REASON.
We had three, maybe four Catalina centerboard boats sink in the dramatic force 1 tornado event which blew through our mooring field. We also lost a Capri 22 (I think) with a fixed keel. They pretty much went down due to being blown over and water entering the cabin overwhelming the floatation. All made it to the surface again. I guess the point I'm making is weather can overwhelm any watercraft - centerboard, keel or whatever. And, if you think that C22 you're looking at never saw the bottom - trust but verify!
Actually I did a "practical" test on the locking-down pin on my Venture 22. Went through a pass I shouldn't have and hit rock bottom at 8+ knots (helped by a tide). I DID do damage to the centerboard box, but certainly not enough to sink her!
druid