I have a solution for the C22 keel to keep it from closing on a knockdown
- Thread starter dgreen1991
- Start date
One thing we're all missing, and I can understand the concerns raised concerning the C-22 swing keel swinging back in a knock-down and allowing the boat to sink. But let's keep this in perspective. Frank Butler designed the C-22 swing keel ~47 years ago. He has built thousands and thousands of C-22's since then, and they are still in production with the same designed swing keel. The vast majority of C-22's are swing keel versions. He has built one of the largest sailboat manufacturing companies in the world. Frank's company, and any manufacturing company, has HUGE product liability issues,(ask Roger MacGregor about lawsuits from flipping boats), and they simply can't afford costly law suits due to inferior or poor designs. Heck, even products with good designs are subject to lawsuits.
I remember many years ago reading about the first C-22 that went down during a race. I believe the C-22 had already been in production maybe ~20 years when this milestone was reached. As I recall, the boat took a knock-down during a race and water filled the cabin and she went down, (as I recall she was re-floated and sailed again). Can the C-22 take a knock down and survive? Absolutely, and most do. Can a C-22's swing keel fall back in a knockdown and allow the boat to turtle? Absolutely. Just last year, we lost two C-22's while racing in Mobile Bay when a sudden violent storm came up. Both boats took violent knock downs, and I know that in the case of Larry's boat, the boat came back up, only to be sunk while being run over by a larger sailboat. But both boats went down with the keels still extended. So yes, the C-22 can sink, and yes there is a slight risk that the keel could fall back in the case of a violent knock down. Anything can and will happen. But the numbers of incidents over many, many years give me great relief in a well designed boat.
I wonder how many C-22's have been struck by lightning, and how many C-22's are out there with no lightning protection?
Don
I remember many years ago reading about the first C-22 that went down during a race. I believe the C-22 had already been in production maybe ~20 years when this milestone was reached. As I recall, the boat took a knock-down during a race and water filled the cabin and she went down, (as I recall she was re-floated and sailed again). Can the C-22 take a knock down and survive? Absolutely, and most do. Can a C-22's swing keel fall back in a knockdown and allow the boat to turtle? Absolutely. Just last year, we lost two C-22's while racing in Mobile Bay when a sudden violent storm came up. Both boats took violent knock downs, and I know that in the case of Larry's boat, the boat came back up, only to be sunk while being run over by a larger sailboat. But both boats went down with the keels still extended. So yes, the C-22 can sink, and yes there is a slight risk that the keel could fall back in the case of a violent knock down. Anything can and will happen. But the numbers of incidents over many, many years give me great relief in a well designed boat.
I wonder how many C-22's have been struck by lightning, and how many C-22's are out there with no lightning protection?
Don
Good info Jack & Druid.... I've heard many say the locking of the keel is overkill because if the boat rolls to the point that the keel comes back to the boat.... You have bigger problems to worry about than hull damage.
I don't particularly agree with that line of thinking, but I can't argue the point either. I guess we have to rely on the designers intent when the boat was first released for production. Although, c22's and v22's are so close in design, I still can't say with certainty that the keel lock designs are the same. I'm familiar with the venture and it seems to make sense. I agree with Jack though, any modification should be thoroughly researched before implementation. Great feedback gentlemen! Thanks...
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Nice anchorage photo...... I think you need to get her on a trailer and drive down for the annual C-22 North Gulf Coast Cruise in May. We can sit in the cockpit, or on the beach and have a cold beer, or maybe arm wrestle to see who wins the discussion!
Don
Don
I have a C22 and the keel lock has been frozen since I bought it so never used it. I sail on inland lakes so it doesn't bother me that it's not locked. Question, this lock bolt just uses friction against the keel to keep it from closing correct?. You would think if they didn't want it to close they would have used a larger bolt that actually goes through the keel for a true keel lock. My guess is they wanted it to give way on a hard grounding to reduce any damage to the keel pin and trunk.
There was a great article on this subject in the November 2015 MainBrace. Lot's of statistics, my head still hurts from the math!
Don
The factory Catalina 22 'keel lock' is sadly mislabeled.
The designers KNEW that there was NO WAY that their would be able to deal with the forces on a pin to stop the keel if the boat hit something while sailing. So, the lock only applies FRICTION to the side of the keep to keep it from wildly swinging and damaging the hull upon impact. It is NOT designed to keep it in place at all cost. Either a hard grounding or gravity (if the boat were to invert) would allow it to move backwards.
The designers KNEW that there was NO WAY that their would be able to deal with the forces on a pin to stop the keel if the boat hit something while sailing. So, the lock only applies FRICTION to the side of the keep to keep it from wildly swinging and damaging the hull upon impact. It is NOT designed to keep it in place at all cost. Either a hard grounding or gravity (if the boat were to invert) would allow it to move backwards.
I have been wanting to do that for some time. My wife is from Panama City. I always tow it down there for some R&R while she visits with her mom and dad. I sailed to Destin a couple years ago. Then sailed to Crooked Island which was amazing. Last summer Port Saint Joe. I was thinking Apalachicola this year. I want to scuba dive the Panama City area offshore with my daughter this year also. She may come down, so I just don't know yet. Would love to meet you and other C22 sailors and see a newer model C22. I have got a few projects to complete on my boat. I am already missing time on the water now. I enjoy discussion, even though I admit, maybe this idea was kinda out there and not needed if you sail the boat as designed. Just stuck in the house and bored this weekend. Here is a Kite Aerial Photo (KAP) of the tip of
Somehow I accidently posted a previous post with the same picture. I am so done with my "STUPID" idea.
dgreen 1991.... We attended the National in Ft Walton Beach in 2013 and fell in love with the warm clear water in Florida. Started looking into moving here, and now we made the BIG move. Can't wait to start exploring the area here around Tampa. Looking forward to the Cruise in March and the NGCC and Nationals in Ft Walton in May!
I'm sure we'll meet somewhere on the water.
Don
I'm sure we'll meet somewhere on the water.
Don
Give us a shout out if/when you get some specific dates in mind, we love that area as well.
Well its been an interesting chat folks. My view after sailing swing keels for over 45 years is if I rollover which I have not being smartish and dowsing sails in a gale and heading to port, running on the iron jib, or anchoring then the swing keel position is the least of my problems. I would probably have the companionway open and cockpit hatches unlatched for convenience so most of my expensive loose gear including the fuel tank would be heading to the bottom and the boat flooding pretty good, only the captured air inside slowing that down. So frankly scarlet I don't really give a hoot about where the #@&% keel is I am trying to tread water and if I am even trying to right it am busy undoing all the lines and halyards so the sails don't keep me upside down. Just a thought, and the cable system safety system proposed would only complicate all those things I am trying to undo. Just an old sailors opinion!
hey dgreen, jack is correct. it's not the cable connection at the keel it's the bow connection point is to high. also Capt Don knows what he is talking about. stop being defensive and listen.... better to get a second reef point in your main and a storm jib.... my lock down hole has been glassed over...... not something to worry about. ..........c u out on the Loop. james
Not sure if the lock bolt was designed to shear in a hard grounding. The bore tha holds my lock bolt is completely distorted in every direction ( indicating that the previous owner grounded quite a bit lol) but never the less, the bolt was intact....