Hunter 410 rig tuning to get main to furl better?

[Scottotheforest]

My 2001 410 has a curve tuned into the Seldon furling mast (no backstay, swept spreaders), and the main doesn't furl in vertically (always at a bit of an angle) and some vertical wrinkles.

Original sails, no battens, so stretching during the 17 years before we bought it may be the problem, but I have read that having a swept back curve in the mast may be the culprit too.

Any advice on whether I should try to retune the rig for a straighter mast would be prudent? If so, am I looking at hiring pros to do that?

Sails off now to take to the sail loft for some needed maintenance and assessment.

Cruiser only, race days are long behind me.

Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[stuartsw]

The curve is there in all of the Seldén B&R rigs, for the usual reasons of handling the pressure of downwind work. You’ll find a number of threads on this site, on the subject of smooth in mast furling, reefing, and deployment.

 

[Scottotheforest]

The curve is there in all of the Seldén B&R rigs, for the usual reasons of handling the pressure of downwind work. You’ll find a number of threads on this site, on the subject of smooth in mast furling, reefing, and deployment.

Makes sense to me Stuart, did not know that. Last boat was a Hunter 34 w running backstay and handled on main, so 410 is all new to me.

I'll strike the curved main of my list of explanations (along with the retuning problem that would bring to solve it!) and go back to the old stretched sail.

Should be interesting to see what the sail loft says next week about how much to spend rehabbing it.

At least Selden manual, these forums and YouTube vids taught me enough to successfully get the sails down and off the boat with a fully enclosed cockpit singlehandedly, rough flaked then balanced on the boom and gently lowered into a waiting wheelbarrow on the 4 foot wide finger without doing a saltwater 'cleaning'.

Covid complicates every task. Just glad it's a task I'm doing!

Appreciate your knowledge and quick response to share it with me!

 

[Sailgunner]

I just replaced my mainsail on my 2000 410. Recommend replacing sails rather than repair on your 17 yr old sails.

 

[Scottotheforest]

That's my anticipated near outcome. Very near term, the 5 boat units (about $5,000 Canadian) for a new one will have to wait for the piggy bank a bit to catch up, so I'll be spending a bit of dough for sure now to put a tourniquet and artery clamp on both sails just to stop the bleeding.

Mostly just getting some leech seams re-sewn that have let loose, and I'll buy sail bags for them to be reused with the eventual new sails when that happens.

Did you do the jib too? Did new main change furling ease?

 

[VanIslandGuy]

Hi Scott, are you in Nanaimo BC? You're welcome to come down for a sail on our 410 out of Ladysmith to see what our UK Sails look like. We just upgraded last year. Boat is traditional main with full battens however. PM me anytime.

 

[Sailfanatic]

Never owned a B&R rig, but Brian Toss had a discussion of B&R tuning here

Rig Survey Part 1: Surveying the Design – Brion Toss Yacht Riggers

As surveyors, our work is based on the skills and knowledge of others, on lessons learned, often at great expense, given as a gift to us. A surveyor is the holder of a template, a vision collated of the ideal and the practicable, a filter through which to view our subjects. This template, in order

briontoss.com

the net of which is that the mast should not bend more than 2" or it'll affect sail furling. FWIW.

 

[Scottotheforest]

Never owned a B&R rig, but Brian Toss had a discussion of B&R tuning here

Rig Survey Part 1: Surveying the Design – Brion Toss Yacht Riggers

As surveyors, our work is based on the skills and knowledge of others, on lessons learned, often at great expense, given as a gift to us. A surveyor is the holder of a template, a vision collated of the ideal and the practicable, a filter through which to view our subjects. This template, in order

briontoss.com

the net of which is that the mast should not bend more than 2" or it'll affect sail furling. FWIW.

Thank you SailFanatic. That was my original thought too, but without a backstay the idea of some bend certainly would strengthen it for downwind sailing as previously discussed. I may need to contact Seldon directly to see what they recommend as the proper amount in order to know the sweet spot between strength and furling ease.

 

[Scottotheforest]

Hi Scott, are you in Nanaimo BC? You're welcome to come down for a sail on our 410 out of Ladysmith to see what our UK Sails look like. We just upgraded last year. Boat is traditional main with full battens however. PM me anytime.

Thanks Neighbour! My brother keeps his boat at Ivy Green in Ladysmith, so we get down there a bit. In the short term I will have to just thank you for your generous offer but sadly decline until the wretched virus lets us return to normal social activities.

We're primary caregivers to a close relative who turns 100 in a few months so we have to be extra careful. But isn't cruising just the best place to be in that regard? Unless you're dock cruising, anchoring out during the pandemic is no different than normal times!

Maybe that's why it's so relaxing and recharges our batteries?

We'll keep an eye out for you next spring though. Boat name?

 

[Sailgunner]

That's my anticipated near outcome. Very near term, the 5 boat units (about $5,000 Canadian) for a new one will have to wait for the piggy bank a bit to catch up, so I'll be spending a bit of dough for sure now to put a tourniquet and artery clamp on both sails just to stop the bleeding.

Mostly just getting some leech seams re-sewn that have let loose, and I'll buy sail bags for them to be reused with the eventual new sails when that happens.

Did you do the jib too? Did new main change furling ease?

Yes the new main helped with furling. Did not do the jib but probably should.

 

[shemandr]

Scottoftheforest, how much pre-bend do you have? Who last tuned your rig? Straightening the mast is not that big of a job. But whoever tuned it put the pre-bend in for a reason. What has changed since then is the change in sail shape. I had a H356 with the B&R rig and in mast furling. I've posted many times about the problems I had with that system. In the years since I owned the boat I've come to understand that the system is sensitive to mast pre-bend and sail shape (In my case full length vertical battens were a problem too.)
If you have 6" or more of pre-bend I would reduce it to 2" - as indicated above by Sailfanatic in post #7. See if your sailmaker can do a tummy tuck on the main. But remember the pre-bend of the mast and curve of luff need to be harmonious. Follow instructions of sailmaker on that.
You can search the forums for the technique to measure each.

 

[Scottotheforest]

Thank you Shemandr. Appreciated. I have no way of knowing who tuned the rig last (or ever?!). Sails go to sail loft of same brand (likely not the actual same loft) in nearby city later this week for analysis and recommended repairs. Cruising sail only- no rigid battens.

So I should have a better understanding of its status and expected remaining lifespan soon.

Thank you for suggesting prebend amounts and where to look to find out how to measure it. 'Eyeballing' doesn't seem like a precision method, which is all I have in my toolbox at the moment.

Quantifying that before ordering a new sail seems more than just prudent, as I agree in theory that having the prebend and sail cut matching should make boat life happier!

 

[JamesG161]

Original sails, no battens, so stretching during the 17 years before we bought it may be the problem

I solved the problem with a new sail. No mast tuning.

Read this link on that includes Selden and Zspars instructions. Pictures too!!
In mast 'piece of crap' furling system

Happy furling...
Jim...

PS: I can link pre-bend too.

 

[Scottotheforest]

I solved the problem with a new sail. No mast tuning.

Read this link on that includes Selden and Zspars instructions. Pictures too!!
In mast 'piece of crap' furling system

Happy furling...
Jim...

PS: I can link pre-bend too.

Thanks Jim! Even if I can't afford to solve the new sail issue immediately, the idea of a 'passive' solution to look forward to puts a smile on my face!

Would love to have the pre bend link too if you have a minute Jim. Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend, so happy Thanksgiving to you!

 

[JamesG161]

Would love to have the pre bend link too if you have a minute Jim

Many more, but this explains the forces involved on the mast.
Why design a boat with prebend?

And a bit more..
Does Anyone Have A Rig Tuning Guide?

My old sail was baggy, at the foot, too. See my Avatar picture.
I never furled the baggy part until I could get a new main for Xmas

At the end of the sailing day, I would use a bungee cord to wrap the excess sail around the mast.

Santa comes soon...
Jim...

 

[Scottotheforest]

Many more, but this explains the forces involved on the mast.
Why design a boat with prebend?

And a bit more..
Does Anyone Have A Rig Tuning Guide?

My old sail was baggy, at the foot, too. See my Avatar picture.
I never furled the baggy part until I could get a new main for Xmas

At the end of the sailing day, I would use a bungee cord to wrap the excess sail around the mast.

Santa comes soon...
Jim...

Good stuff. Although sometimes it seems like waiting for as a kid- seems like foreeeeever.

But as an old dude now- hope springs eternal.

 

[Valerio]

same problem here, your main has became too baggy, you need a new flatter main. sorry

 

[Scottotheforest]

Off to the sail loft tomorrow with my old sails for the verdict. New flatter tighter mains and stomachs are both something you pay for one way or another after a certain age, apparently...

 

[Valerio]

i friend of mine has a sail loft here in mexico city, i had my new main for less than 2000 usd

 

[Valerio]

this is my new main