Hunter 31 Bilge Compartments

[seattle-hunter-31]

I have a continuous water leak draining into the bilge, but I haven't yet found where it originates. I'm not sure what the fluid is, but it's pink/brown sweet smelling fluid. Not sure if it's salt or freshwater. I recently replaced all my coolant hoses on the engine and I just pulled off the two hoses leading from the engine to the water heater, so now there's no source for coolant to get in the bilge since the engine is not dripping anything. I plan to pull out the water heater entirely since it's corroded out, and I believe this could be the source of the leak, though I haven't been able to confirm that yet.

There are two holes drilled into the bilge liner on the side towards the bow of the bilge. The water leak is coming from the lower of the two holes. When I look into this lower hole, the water level is full up to the bottom of this hole, and the water is continuously flowing into the bilge. The bilge pan gets about 1" of water in about a week.

I've tried poking my head into a number of access locations by the head, v berth, and around the settee, but everything looks dry where I've looked. What would drain into this part of the bilge? What should I be looking for if removing the water heater does not stop the leak?

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[seattle-hunter-31]

I figured out that the water is coming from the mast, leaking into the shower pan, then into the bilge. The compression post is wet, but when I poke it with a sharp tool it doesn't not appear to be rotted through.

I'll have to start the investigation of the leak source from the topside, but my hunch is that it's either the sealant at the base of the mast, or there are some holes in the rigging connection that look like they could be trapping water.

The boat is new to me, but as I understand the rigging was done 3 years ago, and the mast was pulled and rewired at the same time. I'm guessing something wasn't done right, and now it's leaking. I contacted the guy who did the rigging, so hopefully he can help figure it out with me.

Does anything in my photos from the topside look bad? I plan to seal up around the base connection and around the hardware, at least as a temporary measure to see if that stops the leaks. It could be higher up, in which case I'll need to pay somebody to climb the mast.

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[seattle-hunter-31]

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

I haven't had the mast off, but as I understand, the mast sits on a plate, and there's a tube where the wires run through, and there are weep holes to allow drainage. If that wire tube is not well sealed (maybe), or the weeps get clogged, water could get in. My best guess now is that the weeps are clogged, and the water level rises until it reaches the top of the tube for the wiring, and then water dumps right into the top for the wiring.

Has anybody tried spray foam insulation in the tube from the underside? Seems like this could at least keep water from dumping inside. So long as the weeps are working, maybe this could at least block water until I poke at the weeps to allow drainage.

For now I'll try to clean out weeps and not try the spray foam thing. I'll keep a close watch during a storm and see if unclogging the weeps helps.

I found this photo online, this looks similar to what I have. I see that if that tube is not well sealed or water gets to the top of the tube, I'm screwed. No way to really know what's going on until the mast is pulled unfortunately....hopefully unclogging the weeps will do the trick.

 

[SailormanDan]

From what I remember reading on this forum, H31s have a problem with this. The information is probably on the site already if you do a search.
Google Advanced Search: https://www.google.com/advanced_search
The upper section is for your search terms.
In the lower section where it asks for "site of domain" put: http://forums.sailboatowners.com/
Good luck, you'd be surprised what pops out.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

I'll keep searching the site, it seems that the mast/compression post issue is very common with this boat and a number of people have had to deal with the water leak. I'm sure with enough digging I can find info on the mast post base, and how this is all detailed.

I don't believe this is a leak that's been present for decades. It seems to be a leak that's been going on for maybe a few years since the post is wet, but the rot is not extremely extensive, as would be expected if this leak has been ongoing for decades. Also, when the mast was pulled 3 years ago and rewired by the previous owner, I assume that if a leak were present at that time, it would have been addressed by either the electrician or rigger who worked on the boat. I highly doubt someone would ignore something like that. My guess is that somebody didn't seal something up correctly, and that's why it's leaking now. I think the previous owner was extremely inattentive, and he didn't realize that his boat had been leaking for the previous 3 years after the mast was reinstalled. Based on the condition of the plumbing, engine, and electrical when I bought the boat, I'd say the previous owner was not involved with maintenance of the boat, he likely just paid people for everything, and never even looked in the bilge.

All of this happened before I owned the boat, and I've reached out to the guy who did the work for help, and he's taking a look to help me determine how this was all sealed up. I might contact the previous owner, but I have a feeling he'll be clueless and won't have any photos of any of this work.

I really need a photo of the mast base after everything was sealed, and right before the mast was reinstalled. The chance of getting that photo is probably 0, but who knows.

Ultimately, I think I'll have to pull the mast, but for now I think the solution will be to seal up as best I can from the underside, and attempt to keep the weep holes clear.

If anyone else knows a better temporary solution, I'd love to hear it. Since the compression post does not appear compromised, I'd rather not pull the mast. It doesn't appear to me than water is leaking into the deck or beam, it seems water is making it straight down through the tube for the wiring, and the only source of rot is at the post base. When poking the post base, it seems fairly solid, so I don't believe it requires immediate replacement. It may not be a bad idea to replace this post when the time comes to pull the mast, but I don't have the time/money to do it right now.

 

[SailormanDan]

I've read cautions on here that sealing anything from underneath just forces the water to run elsewhere, since you haven't actually sealed the real leak. Good luck with figuring it out.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

The rigger went out to look at it today, and he drilled a 3/16" hole at the back of the mast. I didn't tell him to do that, but he said some water drained out. Since the boat didn't appear to leak for decades, something tells me that weep holes are most likely not the problem.

It seems to me since water is coming in through the wires, the possibilities are pretty limited. If it's actually constructed like the photo, either they didn't seal between the deck and the pipe, or the pipe isn't tall enough and water is getting in. This seems like it could be a very major issue, water could be getting into the deck at this point. I don't see a pvc pipe sticking down through when I look from the bottom, so maybe they pulled out the pvc, and forgot to put it back.

I'm not sure how water drains out, since my mast apparently has no weep holes (per the rigger). This doesn't make sense to me, it's got to have some way of getting out. I will watch this hole closely with a flashlight at the next rain to see exactly where water is dripping in.

Of course, the real solution is to pull the mast and pull the base plate and to investigate the condition of the deck with the mast removed.

Is it possible to have the mast removed, and just motor back into my slip to do any investigation? I'm thinking so, my neighbor has his boat in his slip with the mast removed....

 

[jssailem]

Seattle.
You can remove the mast. Put it in the yard (on mast stands or saw horses - depending on your boat yard) and motor back to your slip. Yard charged a monthly fee for storing the mast there. $$. I was under construction like that for 6 months while I worked on restoring the mast and rigging.
On my CAL we had several issues. The mast base was removed and the weep holes were clogged. Cleaned it, had it painted. Designed new wire tubes and holes to enter the boat. set it onto the boat with 4200, inserted the wire tubes into the base and caulked them with 4200. Eventually raised the mast. Fortunately the decking around the mast and the compression post were all good.
Simply yes you can do what you suggest.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

jss, I was recently moored in Everett, small world. Prices in Seattle are much cheaper vs Everett, I think Everett is all union? Anyway, the cost to pull the mast is about $300 and storage $10/day from my quick search of yards. I think for now all I need to do is rebed the isomat plate, seal around the PVC pipe for wires, and confirm how water drains out. I'll also do some inspection of the deck, and hopefully there is nothing wrong.

There is some slight rot at the base of the compression post, but it doesn't seem bad to me, not enough to warrant replacement. When I poke it with a sharp tool, it doesn't go through anywhere, even tho it looks black. There's a small piece of wood chipped off at the base, but I don't believe it's worth replacing the entire compression post just for that. I'll probably get a second opinion on what they think, but I'm generally pretty conservative about things, and I don't feel nervous about sailing with that compression post. My big fear is that the water leak has gotten into the deck, and this whole thing will turn into a major repair. There are no visual signs of damage, but I won't feel 100% until I get moisture meter readings, and the mast is pulled to visually inspect the hole through the deck.

I need some other work done too, but not sure how much I want to do all at once. There are some cracks in the gelcoat around chainplates, so it might not be a bad idea to reseal the chainplates and add some reinforcing to reduce/eliminate cracking. I need new backstays too. I like to keep projects small, rather than trying to do everything all at once. Honestly, I'd rather pay to pull the mast again in a year to do chainplates, rather than trying to do all projects at once. Maybe doing the backstays now would be a good idea. For some reason, the previous owner paid to pull the mast and do most of the rigging, but he didn't address the spar base plate, chainplates, backstays, two of the shrouds. I guess he was like me, maybe it came down to money and time.

 

[jssailem]

Regarding the pipe. Looked like the base of the pvc may need to be cleaned and sealed. We used a flexible tube ( piece of hose). Fitted it over the thru pipe. It allowed us to bend it and the wires in a loop so that the water running down the wires (which always happens) drops off the wires and drains out the weep holes.

Everett cost about 300 taking the mast off and putting it back on the boat. $5 per day in the yard.

The port is pushing the rates up and we lost the fee wifi. Which never worked.

With the mast off, I removed all the chain plates. Polished them removing any minor pits. Then too the plates to a shop to passivize the steel before rebeding them with buytl using the idea on MaineSails site. No leaks. Happy sailor.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

Thanks for the tips. I'm guessing this whole leak is from the pvc pipe at the wires. I know the mast was rewired about 3 years ago by the previous owner. I'm starting to think they did something very wrong, and that's why water is pouring in. It's not a small amount of water, during a heavy rain the bilge is getting a constant stream of water. It could be that they forgot the pvc pipe entirely, so any water that gets into the mast can dump right in. Electricians are not thinking about waterproofing, so maybe they didn't understand just how critical it was to seal that pipe back in. The guy who did the rigging said he was on vacation when the electrical work was done, but he wouldn't give me anymore info on who did the work.

 

[jssailem]

Truly frustrating when you have to figure out what is going wrong, what someone may have done to try and fix it, and then what you must do to correct all the former ills.

Here are a couple of images showing the mast base prior to reattachment. The pipes have a hose attached. The wire and the hose are looped and stuffed into the mast base as the mast is set down on the base.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

If I had to guess, I'd say whoever did the wiring didn't seal up anything, so water can get onto the wires and go straight into the boat. Based on the horrible condition of the wiring on the boat, this seems to be most likely. I highly doubt somebody went to the trouble of installing a hose with a drip loop to make absolutely sure no water could get in.

As I understand however, an electrician was paid for this work. Maybe marine electricians are better, but based on my work with electricians in the construction industry, they don't care or consider waterproofing at all when doing their work.

I wish I knew who the electrician was, I'd ask them to pay the cost to pull the mast and do the wiring right.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

Anybody have good tips on prepping a boat to remove the mast? The yard I talked to said I could remove the sails, boom, and loosen the rigging to help. I'm planning to have the mast unstepped on Monday, I'm hoping this doesn't turn into a $20,000 repair and insurance claim.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

I had the mast step removed, and the boatyard found there is substantial damage to the deck around the step. They said it will take at least a week to repair the deck, at a cost of at least $4000 - estimate will be coming soon. This is such a critical issue that I don't feel comfortable doing the work myself, so I'll likely pay the yard for cutting out deck. They said that the damage is likely limited to the area of the deck just around the step between the compression post and mast. The whole reason I purchased from a broker and got a survey was to avoid a major costly repair -- so I'm extremely disappointed how this has turned out.

I bought the boat in Aug 2016, so I've had it less than 3 months. I paid a surveyor to specifically look at the mast step (I mentioned my concern about the mast step and compression post during the walkthrough), and he assured me it was fine. I believe the seller knowingly hid this problem, as he claims he has never seen water in the bilge, and it's obvious this is not a recent issue. Bilge water has been present since day 1, and I only recently figured out the source. I believe the seller was well aware of the source, but he decided to hide it from me.

What are my options here? I've already filed an insurance claim, but I feel they are likely to reject the claim for one reason or another. When that happens, what are my options? I've already asked the surveyor, seller, and broker to provide compensation for the repair, so I'll wait to see what they say (they will likely ignore me, or say no).

My guess is it will go down like this: insurance will reject the claim, and nobody will fork over a dime to fix the work, so I'll be stuck with a big bill. Then I'll be looking for a lawyer, as this is more than can be handled in small claims court. I never would have bought this boat if I'd known about this leak in such a critical area.

Who is the best person to go after here? The surveyor? Broker? Seller? Rigger who did the mast unstep 3 years ago?

 

[jssailem]

It sounds like they all were complicit. Where is the money. Always go after the money. I'd be looking for a pit-bull of an attorney.

 

[seattle-hunter-31]

I can talk to a lawyer, but I don't know anybody, and I'm not sure it's even worth it. I don't understand what angle I can really take here. I feel like I'd have to prove that the seller or broker intentionally lied, and I don't know how I could really prove that. With the surveyor, I think I'd have to prove that he missed something that other surveyors in this area would've caught. I'm not sure I could really go after guys who did a repair 3 years ago. Is there a certain type of lawyer (maritime lawyer?) that would be able to help here?

Also, with repairs likely in the $5k-$10k range, I don't know if lawyer fees would just end up eating up all the costs, so it may not even be worth it. I've never worked with a lawyer, so I don't know when it's worth it, and when it's not.

All this is so disappointing, this is my first boat, and it's gone horribly wrong. I understand that there can be things wrong with a boat, but major deck repairs at the mast seem way beyond that's considered ok when getting a survey and buying through a broker. I'm afraid costs may just spiral out of control as they tear into the deck and start to find that water actually damaged more area than they anticipated. This could quickly turn into something where the boat is simply totaled, and I'm stuck with the bill only after 3 months of buying it!

 

[Glenn2002]

aaah yes. I can relate. Sorry to hear of your issues. Luckily not a major component like yours, but similar issues. Bought my first boat (84 Hunter 31) in Aug, I knew the PO did not look after it, but the surveyor said no deal breakers, and what he reported on, OK, no big deal. Anyway......What have I found since. First, leaks all over the place, every portlight, rear quarterberth had at least 2, battery compartment. Spent a month fixing and tracking down new ones I found after the initial ones. We are now 99% dry. Then we started to look at the electrical. After 50 hours of a marine electrician working on the boat I now have a bomber safe and strong electrical system. Found the bilge pump really didnt work. Bought a new one and now find that oily water seeps down into it and gets expelled out the side and into the marina water. Oil is coated on the bilge areas under the floor and in the stringers and as water dribbles over it it picks up oil. Obviously this has been going on for years. This was the most recent issue. How I wish I could get under the floor to just clean it all up. Am looking at creating some inspection ports at strategic and safe locations to try. Spent all day trying to track it down and clean all I could and put absorbent pads down, as I can't have the outside issues I had today again. Lost my faith in the surveyor, you are basically on your own. We had a good look at the mast step, and a friend who redid his on a Hunter 34 had a close look and no leaks or water damage etc... All good there it looks like. Getting through the bulk, so am much happier now, but still a lot to do.