Hunter 30 needs help

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Mar 11, 2013
19
Hunter 30 Pilar Point Harbor , Half Moon Bay
Hello
I recently purchased a Hunter 30, 1981, it looks nice and clean. However inside the cabin under the floor near the keel I noticed a lot of corrosion to the structure that support the compression post, there is fiberglass that cover part of the structure other part are exposed and you can see the corrosion, both end of that structure is attached to the rigging. I did some research and it appears that many Hunter owners have the same problem. I would like to know if the structure can be replaced. If so any instructions will be much appreciated, also can the work be done while the boat still in the water
Thank you for your time
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,121
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
I have the same structure. The bottom 1/3 of the vertical post portion was wrapped in fiberglass and clearly had corrosion going on underneath. I used a Dremel tool to cut the fiberglass off of the post all the way down to its welded base plate which sits on the bottom of the bilge sump. Luckily I found the corrosion was not severe, so I wire-brushed it clean and painted it with Rustoleum primer and a coat of white so any new corrosion will be immediately visible. There was almost no rust on the upper portions of the structure. I did this six years ago and so far it seems OK.

Being in salt water, I imagine you could have a more severe situation than I had with my fresh water boat. Seeing a few photos would be helpful. I've read of a few cases where owners cut out and replaced the vertical portion of this structure (With mast down of course.) and I have considered it myself as a proactive measure. I have not heard of anyone replacing the entire structure. That would be a major project. Can't see how you would do it without cutting out a big portion of the cabin liner. I hope it doesn't come to that for you.

Again, post a few photos so we can see what you have.
 
May 27, 2004
2,041
Hunter 30_74-83 Ponce Inlet FL
In the recent thread "Crack Around Mast Base" You will see a mention of the earlier threads on the subject of the H30C's mast step repair (In the bilge). You should post pictures of yours and review the forum history on this subject. Then perhaps the process of repairing yours will be clearer for those of us who have already done this kind of work.
 
Mar 11, 2013
19
Hunter 30 Pilar Point Harbor , Half Moon Bay
Thank you for your reply, the problem that i am worry about is not the mast base but a corroded core near the keel. I took some pic today and i made a hand drawing that hopefuly is better than the way i explained( sorry i am not a native speaking english and i am learning the right terminology) any way the core is made of square beam that is horizontal but take the shape of the hull at its end , at the center of the horizontal part, there is a vertical beam may be 10in long connected to the keel and welded to the horizontal beam. The part that are visible are coroded , other part are not visible under fiberglass , but corrosion spreade and nothing can stope it. I attached some pic, please give me your opinion.

ForumRunner_20130316_111515.jpg
 

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May 21, 2009
360
Hunter 30 Smithfield, VA
That structure is very different from what I have in my 79 H30. Dalliance has a good explanation above and I'll be interested to hear what he has to say now that you've posted pictures.
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,121
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
Attached are three photos; one is a sketch I posted about three years ago in response to a similar question. It may help a bit with terminology and a few more details about the structure. The other two show the conditions I had six years ago and what it looks like today. You definitely have more corrosion than I did in fresh water.

Steel expands when it oxidizes. Corroding steel re-bar in a concrete structure will expand enough to fracture and push the concrete right off. Just like it's doing with the fiberglass around the base of your vertical steel tube in the bilge and just like it was doing in mine. The good news is that, from what I can see in your photos, the fiberglass around the horizontal tube looks like it may still be firmly attached, which would suggest little, if any, corrosion beyond the steel that has been exposed for 30 years. What I see on the horizontal tube looks like it could be just be heavy surface corrosion. The walls of these tubes are pretty thick, 3/16" or possibly 1/4", so you can lose a little steel to surface corrosion and still be OK. Unfortunately, the vertical tube looks pretty bad, and you will find the worst corrosion at the base, under the remaining fiberglass. You need to cut that away to see what you really have. You may need to replace the vertical portion, but I'm not convinced you need to replace the whole structure.

What I did with mine is a bit of a calculated risk because I can't know for sure what, if anything, is going on underneath or inside the tube, but it was recommended by an experienced marine surveyor, and I keep a close eye on it. Being a worrier, I developed a plan a year or two back with a boatyard contractor I trust to replace the vertical tube. I haven't pulled the trigger yet, but the plan is to have a welding shop make a replacement post with a base plate to match the dimensions of the existing and a top plate of about 3"x6". Materials would be 2"x2"x1/4" tube and 1/4" plate, all stainless steel. With mast down, cut out the vertical tube, grind the old weld smooth, wire brush and coat the horizontal tube with epoxy, set the new post assembly in place with thickened epoxy under the base plate and 5200 between the top plate and horizontal tube. I'm not sure we had settled on exactly how to temporarily shore up the horizontal member, or if it is even necessary, but space down there is limited.

Since we haven't actually done this yet, I don't know what unidentified pitfalls there may be to this plan, so I'm interested to hear what others who may have tackled such a project have to say.
 

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Mar 11, 2013
19
Hunter 30 Pilar Point Harbor , Half Moon Bay
Thank you for your elaborate expanation, the blue print looks very accurate. I was out of town for work just came last night. I am going to do a second assasement and see how far the damage is spreading. I will post more questions this weekend. Thank you again
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
The steel (if it is truly steel) should never have been used. I encountered another H30 owner with this very same problem about 2 months back. If you search the recent archives you will find the fix I recommended for him, which is the way it should have been from the start. If you don't find it, ask me and I'll get it for you.

In any case here is the gist of it:

1. The mast compression load should never be transmitted to the top of the keel, but to the hull structure.

2. The bulkhead is not there to support the mast but to keep the post from flexing out of column.

3. Whatever Hunter did involving hunks of metal in the bilge was wrong (definitely not what my dad would have spec'd out), even if they claim(ed) otherwise.

4. Don't use Lowe's or Home Depot as a source for the materials to fix this; but stay with proper boatbuilding practices.

I can help you with this, more in particular, if you'd like me to.

:)
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,121
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
Mr. Cherubini

I read your post from a couple months back and understand what you mean about not putting mast compression load directly onto the keel. I also found another intriguing post from about a year back about replacing mid-deck chainplates with u-bolts at the toe-rail. So you have got me thinking and re-thinking this.

I have always seen this unusual structure in the 81-82 (83 too?) Hunters as being, theoretically - picture it disconnected from the hull - sort of self-contained. That is to say that the downward compression vector of mast compression would be counteracted by the upward tension vector of the chainplates and shrouds through the horizontal member. Should I be calling it a stringer?

In reality, the loads are being transferred to the hull both through the tension rods to the chainplates, side decks and toe rails; and through the fiberglass that wraps the member and tabs it into the hull. I'm not sure how much compression load is really being carried to the keel by the little vertical steel post. Hopefully very little. I do know that Dalliance has a tight hull to keel joint; no "smile", if that's an indicator. It seems like a design that, in theory anyway, might actually transfer less compression load to the keel than the earlier "I-beam" design.

As for it having been executed in steel instead of aluminum or stainless steel.... Well, as an architect who sometimes sees clients & contractors try to save money without considering all the ramifications, it's obvious what happened. They call it value engineering. I call it value removal. No way would your father have done that. It occurs to me that the vertical post could even be an addition to compensate for a downsizing of the horizontal member, but that's pure speculation.

Anyway, my approach to finding a fix for this, has been to look for the least invasive way of replacing an inappropriate material, only where it must be replaced, without changing the designer's intent. I want to avoid inadvertently changing something that I did not recognize the ramifications of.

That said, I am very curious what your solution would be. From your post a couple months ago, I'm thinking it might be some sort of new stringer(s) inserted just under the horizontal steel member, if it's in good condition, to transfer any compression load to the hull rather than the keel. Or would you abandon the steel structure entirely, in favor of a new stringer and relocating the shrouds to the toe rail?

What would you recommend?
 
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Mar 11, 2013
19
Hunter 30 Pilar Point Harbor , Half Moon Bay
Would you please post the fix that was posted couple months ago, also if we can relocate the chaineplate to the rail we still need a horizontal solid structure to support the vertical load from tha mast. I took a look again today and the port side of the structure is more or less accesseble but the starboard side is not unless you performe a major surgery
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,121
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
Here are links for the two posts I was referring to, but do read the entire threads as they contain multiple posts with lots of information and pros/cons of moving the shrouds:

http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=996161&highlight=

http://forums.hunter.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=883270&highlight=

I had some trouble with the links, so if they don't work, do a search by author only for DianaOfBurlington. The dates of the posts are 1/31/2012 and 2/25/2012. Again, read the entire threads.

What did you find in your further investigations? Any more pictures? I felt I could be getting way out on a limb with observations of just two photos and would hate to lead anyone astray.

I'm really looking forward to what DianaOfBurlington has to say. We are so lucky to have someone with such intimate knowledge of these boats and their history on this forum.
 
Mar 11, 2013
19
Hunter 30 Pilar Point Harbor , Half Moon Bay
Hello everyone. A friend of mine a good sailor and with experience and knowledge came to help me to have clear idea , he inspected the horizontal port side and the vertical part under the compression post , the starbord side is impisible to inspect but since the drainage of the shower is to the port side and runing water make more corrosion, then lets assume that the condition of both end are similar, any way he inspected with hammer and he said there is still a good part that are ok . But i am skeptical. I think i have 2 options, either i performe a major surgery and replace the whole structure but with stainless steel , the advantage of that is i will keep the same design and that is important since many hunter owners are talking about the load distribution and so one, the downside of that is the starbord side is not accesible and i dont know how i will be able to extract that part without cuting some fiberglass that may weakeen the hull. The other option is to change the design and use the rail and U bolt to attache the shroud, and use a shorter horizontal I-beam instead of the existant one to hold the mast against the hull, easy to do but i dont know how much stress it can handle, but thinking about the backstay that is attached to the rail with U bolt this idea make sence, however i need your opinion and expertise to make my decsion. Also ladyof burlingam any help is appreciated
Thank you
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
On mast-step structures

If I had a pencil and a piece of paper (or cardboard, or sheetrock, or plywood, or the top of the table saw) as I usually do this would be easier to explain. I'll consider drawing this and scanning it for posting here-- but with this old computer that may take some doing.

Dalliance, you raise some vital points and, in short, you are correct that the metal structure is not the way to go at all. Somewhere I posted some pics of my (unfinished) and I'll post them here again.

Simply stated, the mast/hull/chainplates structure resembles a bow and arrow. The mast is the arrow. The shrouds (all the stays) are the bow string(s). The hull is the bow. The compression always wants to push the mast through the bottom of the hull. The tighter or more loaded the stays are, the more this is true. You could make the shrouds and mast/compression post good and strong and then the hull (the bow) would bend upwards at the chainplates. All of it has to be sound in the same scale.

In about 1970 my dad designed an addition for our house. The rec room had/has a cathedral ceiling and through it he ran three crosswise joists, like for a second floor, at eight-foot centers. When I (the future architecture major) asked him what they were for, he said that they tied the tops of the walls together to keep the roof from sagging. Without them, the top edge of the walls, where the rafters sit, would bow outwards allowing the ridgepole to sag. Eventually (in a pure world) the walls would fall outwards and over, and the whole thing would collapse. The beams were there to triangulate the structure. (Buttresses on the outside of cathedrals support the walls against the same thing, so that is why cathedrals don't have tie-bar joists running through them.)


The hull and bulkheads serve the same purpose. In an all-open boat, the chainplates and shrouds would be pulling upwards enough to cave in the sides of the boat, allowing the bowstrings (shrouds) to relax. The 'bow' has to be kept in place as well. This leads to-- you guessed it-- crosswise beams.

In most of our boats these 'beams' are the main bulkhead. Kept adequately stiff, the plywood separates the sides of the boat against the shrouds. So the whole hull structure has to be tied together with material that will not compress or collapse, from chainplates to mast step (and I mean the base of the mast column at the keel, including the compression post) to chainplates the other side. In a wooden boat, this is done with laminated crossmembers, reinforced ribs that hold their shape in a curve, support the mast base (for it is never on the keel itself) and providing anchor places for (at least) the upper shrouds. Fiberglass boats rely on a stressed skin-- there are no ribs, so the whole hull is a structural member. This is why fiberglass, not paper-mache, is used, because the fibers laid-up in their proper directions provide structural rigidity. So hulls are beefed-up at this location (and others) using more and different kinds of 'glass.

For Cherubini 44s, though we already rely in a phenomenally strong hull-to-deck flange, we lay up a heavy web of fiberglass in this area, a triangular box section knitted into the hull with layup extending almost all the way down to the keel. The boat is incredibly strong in this area-- many cases have been of impact with boats and bulkheads during storms in which the C44 did more damage to the other stuff than the other stuff did to it. Only one C44 in my knowledge ever failed here; and that was because the owner had tensioned his shrouds so unbelievably tight that he had drawn the flange up, actually delaminating his teak deck. I'd never known that was even possible. For our older Hunters the metal toerail bent along the gunwale serves the same purpose as a flange and the best thing, for structural integrity if not for sailing, is to mount the chainplates (or u-bolts) to it.

The fix for our cheaper, lighter, simpler boats is to ensure that as much mast load as possible is transmitted not to one point but across the whole skin of the boat. The main bulkhead (where the mast step is) should be sound, with no softness and no separation from the hull. Check all visible or accessible bulkhead edges (of the plywood) for voids. At Cherubini we bead the edges of plywood in 5200 before 'glassing them in. This fills the space between the edge of the plywood and the hull with something that will not allow air (which becomes water) and enables a fat fillet of material over which a smooth lay-up can go. If you have any exposed plywood edge showing, or know of any gap between the ply and the hull, fill it. This is number one.

Next ensure that the plywood is soundly fastened to the hull. I would not go overboard but adding well-laid-up 'glass to the bulkhead-hull joint and to the bulkhead-deck joint as well will help a lot. Most boats don't have this 'glassed to the deck. Why? --I have no idea. It's vital. Again exposed plywood edges are your Achilles heel.

The other thing, of course, is the soundness of the deck structure itself. All permeable core should be replaced, or just re-permeated, with epoxy, preferably with thickener like silica (which doesn't crush) and fair, freshly laid-up 'glass. Do not replace only the bad core with some sort of block, as I have admonished earlier. The step structure, like the plywood-to-hull bond, has to be transmitted throughout as wide an area as possible to lend as much stiffness and strength as possible. 'Micro' fixes without an eye to the 'macro' requirements are always bad business. Never overlook that on a sailboat, like a motorcycle, everything has a purpose and all the purposes are interrelated. Considering one part of the structure in a vacuum almost always leads to shortsighting one of the other structures. Ideally the whole deck is part of the mast-step structure. Give it the best chance you can.

Remember that, given that the plywood is sound, the compression post is really only there to ensure the plywood does not bow out of column from the mast's load. On my small boat the plywood holds almost the full load-- the compression post (which I replaced) is really just a stiffener. Without it, the plywood would split or bow and thus break. A freestanding compression post is hardly as stiff as one attached to a bulkhead. (I always recommend that a freestanding compression post be made out of a section of the very same mast extrusion-- why should it be anything else?) And a freestanding compression post point-loads the hull, or sole, or bilge, or keel, at its base, which negates the value of a stressed-skin structure. So ensure that the compression post is well-fastened to the plywood, all the way along its height.

At the base of the mast, again, the load should be transmitted to the skin of the boat, not to one point, same as the plywood is attached all the hull along its edges. On my boat I made sole joists of 5/4 mahogany, thoroughly saturated in epoxy, their ends fitted to the hull, on like 10-12-inch centers. This replaced the single sheet of 1/2 plywood that had been 'glassed to the hull (and had rotted from bilge water). At the mast step I made a doubled joist, fastened to the bulkhead along the forward edge, on which stands the compression post (which is fastened to the bulkhead). This 2-1/2"-wide joist is fitted to the hull at its ends (it's wider not for strength but to spread the load where it meets the hull). All of these joists are bonded in with 5200 and the outer sections of the new plywood sole itself (like 12"-wide floorboards) are bonded to them with 5200 and epoxy, making this an integral structure. I did not 'glass this to the hull all along (but could and probably should have). It's held down by stringers on the bunk fronts.

Shortly after I had rebedded the keel in new 5200, and before the keel-bolt nuts had been all tightened down (some were well off the washers), the yard moved the boat. The keel did not fall off and the hull remained stiff. 'Nuff said there.

Without replacing a sound plywood sole, you can get under it (cutting new access holes, which should have been there anyway, to get to it), and fashion a crossmember under the floor to support the mast base or compression-post base. This does not have to touch the actual bilge of the boat (indeed it should allow gooky water to pass freely under it). My joists have limber holes just like in an old wooden boat. Most importantly it should be bonded to the hull and the structure above it that is-- the cabin sole (subfloor)-- and to the bulkhead. Given that your main bulkhead is adequately bonded to the hull, the deck, the sole (and your crossmember) and to the compression post, this should provide sufficient stiffness to keep the bulkhead from bowing, the compression post in column, the keel from falling off and the mast from denting the deck.


I will reiterate what those who have read plenty of my incessant posts have heard often before-- avoid materials for the carpentry and homebuilding trades. Oak is strong but loves to rot. So do ash and most other furnituremaking hardwoods. Most are also impervious to adequate epoxy saturation. Plastics are insufficient (the word 'plastic' means 'pliable'). Metals are both unnecessary and prone to corrosion; also they are hard to work with and vulnerable when tooled. Your best solutions for structural members in small boats are always the traditional boatbuilding woods-- mahogany, spruce, cedar, and so on. Ideally sitka spruce is best for compression, but it has become hard to get. I used white spruce for mine, laminated out of two 2x4s of the stuff, using epoxy. It's strong, light, stiff and pretty. I put a corner bead on it like on a old stairway. That was the hardest part of making it (and not hard at all).

The crossmember can be of good Philippine mahogany (aka lauan). Laminate it in two pieces for stiffness and strength. Avoid the more recently-popular African varieties; they are oily and ugly and take epoxy less well. Honduras/Brazilian is too expensive and unnecessary for looks. WEST epoxy (or MAS or Smith's or anything primarily meant for laminating wood) is your friend. Use it liberally and properly. Avoid any glues you can buy at Lowe's. Via the Web you can locate sources for such things, even wood, that are only a Fed Ex shipment away. Learn to use boatbuilding methods and materials correctly, ask questions, learn more, take advantage of what you learn. There is always a brain trust in every boat shop and marina. You just have to be judicious about whose brains to pick and whose to avoid. Some people hold opinions that hold no water (and nor do their boats!).

I have 40 years in this business, I learned from and still work with some of the very best people ever in it, and I don't mind talking or writing, so pick my brain while I am here.


Here are some older pics of the structure I made. This weekend I will take some more photos of the boat and see if my meagre handiwork can illustrate what I am talking about with the compression post and crossmembers.

 

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Mar 11, 2013
19
Hunter 30 Pilar Point Harbor , Half Moon Bay
Thank you Dianaofburligton for the good description, so basically only the weight of the mast is being supported by the deck and the bullkhead., still thou my question is
1. How to extract the old crossmember specially the starbord side, any cut or hole need to be done
2. The new crossmember should be one piece or assembled in place
3. The end of the the crossmember where the chainplate are attached , any recommendation ?
And last a drawing is better than 10000 words specially for a nonnative speaking english
Thank you for all your help
 
May 21, 2009
360
Hunter 30 Smithfield, VA
Chokrisandy
To replace the metal structure you would need to open up (tear out) the interior of the boat from the floor all the way up both sides to the chainplate attaching points. You probably don't want to do that right now, and I seriously doubt it is necessary. That would be a huge job.
I recommend that you wire brush all the exposed metal to remove loose rust. Paint it with a rust stopper like POR-15, paint with primer and a cover paint like Dalliance did. If the vertical section between the horizontal pipe and the keel is beginning to collapse, you would see deformation in the horizontal section. You could cut out and replace the vertical section, but I wouldn't recommend it at this point. Though it is not an ideal design, your setup is quite sturdy.
So in short, remove visible rust, repaint, keep an eye on it and Go sailing.
 
Mar 11, 2013
19
Hunter 30 Pilar Point Harbor , Half Moon Bay
Thank you Tom for your help, the horizontal beam is not bent, i agree i should enjoy sailing and worry less while the boat still in good shape. Once things start to go wrong then i will find a way to solve the problem. One question thou, how i brush clean whatever under the fiberglass? I am talking about the horizontal beam most of it is cover with fiberglass. Thank you
 
Oct 6, 2007
1,121
Hunter H30 1982 Chicago IL
You can't get to it without cutting off the fiberglass that tabs the member to the hull. I'ld avoid that if possible, but there is a gap between the underside of the horizontal member and the hull that could be useful. The steel curves upward roughly parallel to the curve of the hull in this area. Perhaps you could spray POR-15 into this gap to at least coat the most exposed areas of steel. I haven't had to deal with that area myself being a fresh water boat that spends half the year on the hard. Tom, what do you think? I haven't used the POR-15 you recommended, but it sounds like a great product.
 
May 21, 2009
360
Hunter 30 Smithfield, VA
I haven't used POR-15 either, but I have 2 MGs. These British cars are notorious for rust and the mgexperience.com website people all swear by the stuff. From everything I've read, it and similar products are excellent for arresting rust and establishing a paintable surface. Seems to me that Deck Department used it too when I was on the USS Kearsarge.
I agree to apply it to all of the exposed metal. If the fiberglass is well adhered to the post, there would be little air (you need iron, water, and air to get rust) and the post may not be in such bad shape under the fiberglass. Seal the transition area with POR-15 and enjoy!
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
'Ideal' fix for H30 compression structure--?

Mr. Cherubini

I'm thinking it might be some sort of new stringer(s) inserted just under the horizontal steel member, if it's in good condition, to transfer any compression load to the hull rather than the keel. Or would you abandon the steel structure entirely, in favor of a new stringer and relocating the shrouds to the toe rail?
Dalliance, you raise very valid points about the structural-integrity issues as well as about the unsuitability of this 'solution' of the metallic I-beam. And you got me thinking much more about this too.

My own 'ideal-world' solution would be to replace this faulty rig with an honest-to-goodness bilge bulkhead of heavy plywood, to form the shape, and very heavy glass up both sides and bonded to the hull both above and below the cockpit-sole line. I don't know if this could be effected without dismantling half the interior; but some people may be willing to do this degree of work or may even be in the middle of a related project that makes it much more feasible.

The bilge bulkhead would tie the entire structure of the hull together, sides, bilge bottom and underside of cockpit sole. I'd use 'real' fiberglass, like 16- or 17-oz biaxial weave, and I wouldn't spare it. This thing should be at least 3/4" to 1 inch thick. If cored, the core could be plywood or even balsa so long as the 'glass is strong enough. Solid 'glass would be best-- perhaps some sheet product could be used (at first). By forming a gusset between all three surfaces-- hull, sole and bilge-- you create a structure that can't be distorted or crushed (given adequate material and installation process of course). On this I would step the mast, perhaps providing a longitudinal 'foot' (fore-and-aft) under where the mast-step plate would go.

This could be fabricated in place under the existing sole; but the fits would have to be pretty good and the 'glass work would have to be devoid of all weakening air bubbles and 'near-misses' in layup. And bad adhesion would make it all a waste.

Also this bulkhead must have adequate limber holes; and like the rest of the bilge it should be heavily
painted in gelcoat or at least Bilgekote to keep it clean, free of mold, and sealed against water intrusion.

This is probably a very involved fix for most owner/handymen; but in my opinion it's how it should have been from the factory. Had I access to my dad's notes about this boat's construction (the likes of which I know were kept about the H25 and H30 but not for many mater models), I'd love to see what he'd intended in the design phase. As so many of these boats are turning up with this hunk of aluminum in the bilge, I am sorry I am unable to tell if this was a factory mod, a warranty fix, or something else.
 
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