Hunter 26 mast foot not flush to mast base

May 9, 2023
11
hunter 26 Toronto
I just noticed that my mast is not sitting completely flush down at the base. The fore part of the mast foot is sitting a few millimeters from touching the mast base. Under sail, especially if sailing with just the head sail in waves, there is some noticeable rocking where this gap will close and open slightly.

Similarly, if I pull on the furler the gap closes slightly and when released goes back to its position.

Attached are 2 pics. I slipped a credit card under the gap to try to visualize the distance.

Is this normal? Do I need to tighten my forestay or adjust my shrouds?
 

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Jun 8, 2004
10,446
-na -NA Anywhere USA
I received a private message from the poster. I have asked for a picture sideways to see if the rake backwards is too much. Also, I need to ask if the standing rigging is original or not. Is there any room left for tuning the forestay and shrouds.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,957
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
What caught my eye was the silicone sealant around the mast step. It suggests a Prior Owner had a leak there. Perhaps there is some damage to the deck which is causing the step to not be level. It could be an illusion, however the step looks like it is bent. If the step is bent, then the mast would tend to sit on the back of the step, causing too much rake.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,957
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Here's the photo with a reference line added. There appears to be a subtle but definite curve to the step.

1721764214783.png
 

capta

.
Jun 4, 2009
4,935
Pearson 530 Admiralty Bay, Bequia SVG
It would seem that if the forward base of the mast step is going up it is possible that the aft area under the step has crushed the fiberglass deck upon which the step is supposed to rest. I would be surprised if that SS step has bent, it looks aftermarket and well built.
If it was my boat I'd probably pull the mast out of the step for inspection. Perhaps you can get a boat yard small crane to hang the mast while you inspect the area and restep the mast right then, if all is OK. If it requires work, the yard could store it until the work is completed.
 
Sep 30, 2016
371
Island Packet IP 44 Ventura, CA
The foot should definitly sit flat on the deck. If it doesn't its putting a tremendous stress on the hinge and/or the back edge of the foot and deck. If I recall correctly, the mast swings back for trailering, correct? Probably a standing rigging adjustment needed.
 
May 9, 2023
11
hunter 26 Toronto
What caught my eye was the silicone sealant around the mast step. It suggests a Prior Owner had a leak there. Perhaps there is some damage to the deck which is causing the step to not be level. It could be an illusion, however the step looks like it is bent. If the step is bent, then the mast would tend to sit on the back of the step, causing too much rake.
I removed the mast base put silicone on the base in the spring before launching. The deck does not appear damaged.

It would seem that if the forward base of the mast step is going up it is possible that the aft area under the step has crushed the fiberglass deck upon which the step is supposed to rest. I would be surprised if that SS step has bent, it looks aftermarket and well built.
If it was my boat I'd probably pull the mast out of the step for inspection. Perhaps you can get a boat yard small crane to hang the mast while you inspect the area and restep the mast right then, if all is OK. If it requires work, the yard could store it until the work is completed.
The fiberglass did not appear to be damaged around the mast step. I don’t think the base is bent. However, it does seem like perhaps the plate at the foot of the mast has a very slight curve.

Attached is a picture of the boat side on to try to show the mast rake. I think I’ll need better pictures from further away. I tried measuring via hanging a heavy wrench off my main halyard but it was too windy to really tell.

I also inspected the turnbuckle on my head stay and there is no more adjustment room.

Perhaps I could change some of the hardware attaching the stay to shorten the distance slightly and give myself more adjustment without modifying / shortening the stay itself?
 

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Sep 30, 2016
371
Island Packet IP 44 Ventura, CA
Okay those latest pics are helpful. Where the forestay attaches to the deck you have two shackles from the turnbuckle to the U-bolt. No reason for that. Take off the lower shackle and see if you can unscrew the turnbuckle enough to reach the u-bolt with the the one shackle coming off the turnbuckle. I think that is the original setup. If its a little snug fitting over the u-bolt you can try spreading it a little. If the turnbuckles will not extend far enough , it may be time for a new forestay. Use the mast lowering system (or something) to keep the mast up when you release the forestay. A halyard will work as a temp forestay.

Before doing all that though, you could experiment by releasing the side stay tension and seeing if the mast will come forward. Just count the turns that you unscrew each turn buckle. But it sounds like the stay tensions will all need to be redone by the time all this is over. Not hard, and a great learning opportunity. EDIT: just reread post #1and you said the foot will close the gap in waves under sail. So it will go into position, it just needs the stays properly adjusted.

The previous owner may have tried to create additional mast rake to try an increase performance. Or just didnt know what he was doing. Or the standing rigging is in dire need of adjustment. Either way, you need to pull the mast forward.
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,957
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
To measure rake, hang a heavy object from the mast head using the main halyard so that is it in a bucket of water. The water will dampen the motion and make it easier to see the rake.

There is way too much backstay tension. The mast looks relatively straight until it gets to the forestay attachment, then it bends back.

The toggle on the forestay is just an accident waiting to happen. The bolt securing the toggle has no cotter pin and the split ring on the clevis pin is shot and needs to be replaced. As @CrispyCringle said, there should be no need for the toggle, remove it and loosen the turnbuckle.

Rake and Prebend are easily confused terms. Prebend is the amount of curvature induced in the mast to match the luff curve of the mast and to reduce the chance of the mast inverting, i.e, the middle of the mast bending aft. Think of prebend as sort of a parenthesis ). Rake is the angle the mast makes with the waterline. See the photo below of the Pride of Baltimore II, a boat noted to have a lot of mast rake.

The photos all suggest there is way too much backstay tension and forestay tension. The backstay is pulling the top of the mast aft and the forestay is pulling the upper middle of the mast forward. The mast is seriously out of tune.

Hire a rigger to tune the mast and teach you how to do it. A boat with a properly tuned mast is more fun to sail than one that isn't. I'd suggest you find a friend in the marina to help, however, there are many who only think they know how to tune one. Ask around and you'll find them, they will tell you " just get the mast straight and tighten it till it feels right," look for the guy in the marina who has a Loos gauge and a measuring tape, there's better chance he'll know what he's doing.

DSC_2629.jpeg
 
May 9, 2023
11
hunter 26 Toronto
Thanks for the replies. I’ll try the bucket of water trick!

On this boat there is no backstay, you’re looking at the topping lift running back to the boom.

I have a loos guage and used it to set equal tension on the upper and lower shrouds. That said I’m going by articles online and YouTube videos so I will see if I can find someone who knows what they’re doing.

I will try removing the lower toggle with the quick release pin to see if this gives me the adjustment I need.

I may also get a friend to help me lower the mast and ensure nothing is impeding the mast.

Currently it feels like the shrouds want to hold the mast as it is and it takes a hell of a lot of tension on the furler extrusion pulling sideways to close the gap by a mm or two.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,957
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
On this boat there is no backstay, you’re looking at the topping lift running back to the boom.
Try releasing any tension on the mainsheet. It may not do much, but it is simple to do. Generally is best to tune the mast before installing the boom.

I have a loos guage and used it to set equal tension on the upper and lower shrouds. That said I’m going by articles online and YouTube videos so I will see if I can find someone who knows what they’re doing.
Ah, the internet, a vast collection of unvetted information.

Tension is usually set based on the wire size. I use about 10-12% of breaking strength as a guide. Start with the all rigging just hand tight and make sure the mast head is centered over the boat. l use the outer edge of my chain plates, others are more fussy and measure a points on the rail that are equidistant from the stem. Adjust the tension by hand on the uppers to center the mast. Leave the lowers loose. Now gradually bring up the tension on the uppers, go back and forth a couple of turns on the port side, then a couple of turns on the starboard, check the tension and check the measurements. Keep repeating until the desired tension is reached. Check the mast for straightness by looking up the mainsail track. If everything is good, then move on to the lowers. If not, loosen it all up and shake the mast a bit to remove all the tension and try again.

Next move on to the lowers. Start with hand tight to an even tension on both sides. Check for mast straightness along the mainsail track. Repeat the tightening process from side to side, checking mast straightness and tension until the desired tension his reached. When I tune my rig, the lowers have a little less tension because they use smaller diameter wire. If your wires are the same size, you might try a little less tension on the lowers, so if you are 12% on the uppers, try 9 ir 10% on the lowers.

Now tighten the forestay. Finding the correct tension will be some trial and error. It should be tight enough that the roller furler works easily but loose enough that there is some sag in the forestay when going to weather. Make your best guess and go sailing.

Check the tune by going to weather in 8 to 10 knots of wind. The leeward shrouds should be just slack, not slopping around, just a little softer than when you tuned it. If they are tight back off a turn, if too loose, tighten up a turn or two. Tack and repeat for the other side. Check the mast for straightness.

The forestay should sag a little, maybe 2 or 3 inches to match the curve of the luff and the sail should furl easily.

Back at the dock, check the tension again to see that the pairs of shrouds are about equally tensioned.

The best places for reliable information on rig tuning will be from spar manufacturers, big name sailmakers, (North, Doyle, etc), and one design class websites. The most specific information will come from a one design website for your specific boat. The information I provided is based on experience and reading books, yea the paper kind that an editor actually vetted for accuracy. Ivar Dedekam's book (Amazon link) is one of the better more comprehensive books available.

Good luck!
 
May 9, 2023
11
hunter 26 Toronto
If I’m using my loos guage properly (maybe I’m missing something) the guage is 3/16 all around and I’m measuring about 380lbs on the uppers and lowers or under 10% of breaking. I tried to retune at the start of this season because it became obvious the mast was not straight. Tension was 500lbs on one side and 300 on the other

I can’t measure my head stay / forestay tension due to the furler extrusion.

I guess one of my fears here is slacking off the tension on the shrouds, getting more adjustment room on my head stay through removing the toggle, and cinching it down to try to get the mast flat but putting way too much tension on the head stay which I can’t measure easily. I suppose this is only possible if there’s another reason why the mast is not sitting flat on the step base other than the rigging.
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,957
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
3/16 wire has a breaking strength of about 4800 lbs. You won't be able to get anywhere near there with hand tools.

Slack everything off and start all over. A 200 lb difference between port and starboard is way too much. Once the rig is mistuned, it is impossible to correct unless you go back to the very start. Slack everything off to just hand tight, shake the mast to all the fittings seated right and begin to retune.

Headstay tension is not as critical as shroud tension. The greatest load on the rigging comes from the sides and the mast is weakest from side to side because of its shape. Boats with backstays and back stay tensioners change the tension based on the wind and course. Just tighten it enough to get the furler to roll easily and just a little sag when going to weather in moderate conditions.
 
Sep 30, 2016
371
Island Packet IP 44 Ventura, CA
Since you have swept back spreaders, adjust the forestay to get the mast foot right. Then adjust the tension in the side stays. Probably take a few iterations. On a swept spreader configuration, for practical purposes, you cant over tighten the forestay without over tightening the side stays. They are a balanced triangle.

I will say that although I agree with what @dlochner says for the most part, Im unsure about tightening the stays to within 10-12% breaking strength. That seems way too tight to me. Im not a rigger, just a boat owner. So I cant say with certainty. But just a quick google search shows 3/16" 7x19 cable to have a breaking strength of 3210 lbs. To get within 10% of breaking would be about 2800 lbs! Multiply that by 4 side stays and and you would be pulling the deck downward with about the weight of 2 SUVs. OR maybe I read that wrong, and hes saying USE 10-12% of breaking strength as the amount of tension. That seems fairly reasonable. Perhaps he can clarify.
 
May 9, 2023
11
hunter 26 Toronto
I will say that although I agree with what @dlochner says for the most part, Im unsure about tightening the stays to within 10-12% breaking strength. That seems way too tight to me. Im not a rigger, just a boat owner. So I cant say with certainty. But just a quick google search shows 3/16" 7x19 cable to have a breaking strength of 3210 lbs. To get within 10% of breaking would be about 2800 lbs! Multiply that by 4 side stays and and you would be pulling the deck downward with about the weight of 2 SUVs. OR maybe I read that wrong, and hes saying USE 10-12% of breaking strength as the amount of tension. That seems fairly reasonable. Perhaps he can clarify.
Yes I believe it’s 10% of breaking. Not within 10% of breaking!
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,957
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
To get within 10% of breaking would be about 2800 lbs! Multiply that by 4 side stays and and you would be pulling the deck downward with about the weight of 2 SUVs. OR maybe I read that wrong, and hes saying USE 10-12% of breaking strength as the amount of tension. That seems fairly reasonable. Perhaps he can clarify.
Sorry I wasn't clear, the shrouds should tension to about 10% of breaking strength. So a wire with a 3200lb breaking strength should be tensioned to about 320 lbs, maybe a little less in light air and a little more in heavier air.
 
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