Hey Everybody, Got a question that's been bugging me. I've got a 1977 C-30 standard rig, no bowsprit with a 150% genny and a well-used main (no rips, but about 8 years old). I'm deep in Boston Harbor & it takes me about 1 to 1 1/2 hours just to get out of the harbor if I'm heading to another port for the night. Needless to say, I'd like to get the most speed out of my boat because the majority of destinations are at least 4 hours away (Scituate, Salem, Marblehead) and most are 8 to 12 hours away (Cape Ann, Provincetown, Cape Cod Canal), etc. I just don't feel like I'm getting all of the performance out of my boat, but I wanted to compare notes with you all to see how you guys do. Here are some variables that I'm sure you're going to ask me about: 1. I've got a clean bottom 2. 2 bladed prop 3. The boat has about 200 lbs of gear & personal belongings on board (not overloaded) 4. All tell tales are perfectly horizontal on main & genny 5. Minimal weather helm (rudder isn't causing drag) 6. Not towing anything 7. I'm religious about maintaining a sharp course (sails are optimal to wind) 8. I've measured speed at slack tide...it's not the current. In about 10 knots of wind I'll get about 3.5 to 4 knots of headway. In about 15 knots of wind I'll usually get 5.5 to 6.5. I sometimes think a 30 foot boat is at a disadvantage to other boats. Smaller boats tend to be able to "plane" a little to improve speed; Larger boats have a higher hull speed from a longer waterline. I've got J-24's smoking past me right along with the 40 footers. Any advice? Does that sound right to you all? Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
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Sounds about right
Allen, I have a C27 (theoretical hull speed about 6.2 knots) and those numbers sound about what I get, even though I don't have a big genny. I guess you gotta move to Hull! (Of course getting there by car could take a while...) Roger C27 & Mabel Cape Cod
Allen, I have a C27 (theoretical hull speed about 6.2 knots) and those numbers sound about what I get, even though I don't have a big genny. I guess you gotta move to Hull! (Of course getting there by car could take a while...) Roger C27 & Mabel Cape Cod
Suggestions
A Martec folding prop should help, many people swear by them. Also a new main, your old one may be blow out. A new 150 wouldn't hurt either. In 10 kt of wind you should get 5-6 kt of speed. In 15 6-7. Rick
A Martec folding prop should help, many people swear by them. Also a new main, your old one may be blow out. A new 150 wouldn't hurt either. In 10 kt of wind you should get 5-6 kt of speed. In 15 6-7. Rick
Thats my experience
Tried to post a reply last night and it didn't take. My experience has been about the same, I probably average about 5.2 with a 3 bladed prop and a reletively clean bottom. On a really good day I can push 6+. The weight difference between a Cat30 and a J30 would be huge. My Cat30 weighs in at 13,000 lbs on the crane, that is before the mast, sails and provisioning. I am sure a "J" is a whole lost less. Comparable 30s at our club are in the 8 -9,000 lbs range. No one at the club can believe she weighs that much, but that is what the crane operator recorded last year. I am curious to what others experiences are. JS
Tried to post a reply last night and it didn't take. My experience has been about the same, I probably average about 5.2 with a 3 bladed prop and a reletively clean bottom. On a really good day I can push 6+. The weight difference between a Cat30 and a J30 would be huge. My Cat30 weighs in at 13,000 lbs on the crane, that is before the mast, sails and provisioning. I am sure a "J" is a whole lost less. Comparable 30s at our club are in the 8 -9,000 lbs range. No one at the club can believe she weighs that much, but that is what the crane operator recorded last year. I am curious to what others experiences are. JS
sounds right to me
for all her great points the C30, is not a racer, she is a cruiser! I have had this discussion before and stated that .5 or 1kt dont mean alot to me, while other maintain it is a huge difference. if you do the math at the end of a average cruising day your J boats and the like will be 8 to 12 miles further down the road or be on the hook 1 1/2 hrs before you. simply solution to this problem is just ask to have dinner ready when you arrive!
for all her great points the C30, is not a racer, she is a cruiser! I have had this discussion before and stated that .5 or 1kt dont mean alot to me, while other maintain it is a huge difference. if you do the math at the end of a average cruising day your J boats and the like will be 8 to 12 miles further down the road or be on the hook 1 1/2 hrs before you. simply solution to this problem is just ask to have dinner ready when you arrive!
In 10-15 kts we usually average 6-7 kts. She
has a 4 y/o 2+2 main and a 3 y/o 150% genoa. She is loaded for cruising and weighs in at +-11,500. Your sails could be the problem or it could be sail trim but it doesn't sound like it. Where do you sail?
has a 4 y/o 2+2 main and a 3 y/o 150% genoa. She is loaded for cruising and weighs in at +-11,500. Your sails could be the problem or it could be sail trim but it doesn't sound like it. Where do you sail?
Re: Sails
Thanks to everyone for the replies. I sail in Boston Harbor & Cape Cod Bay. Winds can be light during July & August which is why I'm asking this question. My 150 is 1 year old, it's a Doyle Bi-radial high performance sail, so I know it's not that. The main is old, though, and that isn't helping things. I thought a new main would help me point better, but I didn't think it would contribute much to off wind performance. Am I wrong on that? Have you guys had a big increase in speed after getting a new main? As for the guy who is getting 5 to 6 knots of hull speed in 10 knots of wind, I've got only one thing to say: Get some investors together, build a boat and compete in the next America's Cup. You must know something the rest of us don't. There is NO WAY I'd be able to get over 5 knots of hull speed in 10 knots of wind. I'd be lucky to get over 4. 3.8 seems to be where she wants to stay in 10 knots, as measured in slack tide with a Raymarine DGPS. Anybody else get that kind of performance?? If so, I will pay you to fly out to Boston, put you up in a nice hotel and buy you dinner if you can show me how to get that kind of performance in light winds with a standard rig C-30. One caveat: If we don't go that fast, the trip is on you. Any takers?!?!? Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632
Thanks to everyone for the replies. I sail in Boston Harbor & Cape Cod Bay. Winds can be light during July & August which is why I'm asking this question. My 150 is 1 year old, it's a Doyle Bi-radial high performance sail, so I know it's not that. The main is old, though, and that isn't helping things. I thought a new main would help me point better, but I didn't think it would contribute much to off wind performance. Am I wrong on that? Have you guys had a big increase in speed after getting a new main? As for the guy who is getting 5 to 6 knots of hull speed in 10 knots of wind, I've got only one thing to say: Get some investors together, build a boat and compete in the next America's Cup. You must know something the rest of us don't. There is NO WAY I'd be able to get over 5 knots of hull speed in 10 knots of wind. I'd be lucky to get over 4. 3.8 seems to be where she wants to stay in 10 knots, as measured in slack tide with a Raymarine DGPS. Anybody else get that kind of performance?? If so, I will pay you to fly out to Boston, put you up in a nice hotel and buy you dinner if you can show me how to get that kind of performance in light winds with a standard rig C-30. One caveat: If we don't go that fast, the trip is on you. Any takers?!?!?
Allen Schweitzer s/v Falstaff C-30 Hull# 632Allen, I can get almost 5 knots in 10 to 12 knots of wind. I went to a 163% jib though. Puget Sound is notorious for light air so it really has made a difference for me. I'll take a pass on the trip and dinner. I don't think five knots is going to happen. sean
OK maybe I exaggerated a little 5-5.5 kts in
10-13 kts of wind but I stand on my claim of 7 kts in 15-18 kts of wind! Must be the cold fresh water makes a difference. Also, a very clean bottom.
5-5.5 kts in10-13 kts of wind but I stand on my claim of 7 kts in 15-18 kts of wind! Must be the cold fresh water makes a difference.
Also, a very clean bottom.I get about 5kts on my c30 TR
I lost mo origanal 150 % genny this year and bought a new one from NSS and my boat speed jumped from 3.3kts to 4.5 in12 to13kts of wind speed But in 18 to 20 kts of wind I heel alot less and this is makeing a big diffrence in boat speed. but I dont see 6kts very often.Its afunny thing that all the 7kt sailers in my club dont get back to the club house anty faster then I do. Maybe they have trouble getting tied at the dock? PS Im sending for my new main this week what do you guys think about a full batten main some people like full battens on top only. John
I lost mo origanal 150 % genny this year and bought a new one from NSS and my boat speed jumped from 3.3kts to 4.5 in12 to13kts of wind speed But in 18 to 20 kts of wind I heel alot less and this is makeing a big diffrence in boat speed. but I dont see 6kts very often.Its afunny thing that all the 7kt sailers in my club dont get back to the club house anty faster then I do. Maybe they have trouble getting tied at the dock? PS Im sending for my new main this week what do you guys think about a full batten main some people like full battens on top only. John
my buddy has a 30 and i have a 27. when we are on the same tack he can hold the same speed as me, but i can sail tighter into the wind than he can and still keep the speed. in light winds i average 5knots. i have reached 7.2 but it was blowing pretty strong. have had good days of steady strong wind where just about all day was over 6. bottom is very clean. on my outboard 8 hp motor i can do 5.8. happy sailing
Speed
I'm sorry I still think 5-6 is possible in 10kt of wind. I'm talking about some good wind, not any of that wimpy up and down stuff. I live in a windy area 10-20 most of the time. I have a folding prop, clean bottom, new sails, full batten main which I like. When I go 3.8kts I get out the boat hook to get the crab pot off. I can't beleive no one will take your offer to go sailing in Boston( isnt that near canada?) in November! Rick
I'm sorry I still think 5-6 is possible in 10kt of wind. I'm talking about some good wind, not any of that wimpy up and down stuff. I live in a windy area 10-20 most of the time. I have a folding prop, clean bottom, new sails, full batten main which I like. When I go 3.8kts I get out the boat hook to get the crab pot off. I can't beleive no one will take your offer to go sailing in Boston( isnt that near canada?) in November! Rick
Hasn't anybody looked at the C30 Polars ?
That will tell you theoretically what is possible in what wind speeds with good sails set perfectly and flat water. I have found them to be pretty accurate as the absolute best I can expect when all things are set correctly for different wind speeds and direction to the wind . These assume folding prop, clean bottom, etc. Everyone should join the C30 organization just for this good info. Here are the polars for a Tall rig C30 with a 150% genny. (remember this is a TALL RIG & 150% genny! - you're C30 would be different) At about 45 deg apparent wind/ 10 knots of true wind should get you about 5 knots boat speed (thus apparent wind speed will feel ~14 knots) At about 90 deg apparent wind/ 10 knots of true wind should get you about 6 1/2 knots boat speed (thus apparent wind speed will feel ~13 knots) http://www.catalina30.com/TechLib/Catalina%2030%20Polars.pdf remember these are expected max potential in ideal conditions, no need to fret that you don't often acheive these speeds ---- but its something to try for
That will tell you theoretically what is possible in what wind speeds with good sails set perfectly and flat water. I have found them to be pretty accurate as the absolute best I can expect when all things are set correctly for different wind speeds and direction to the wind . These assume folding prop, clean bottom, etc. Everyone should join the C30 organization just for this good info. Here are the polars for a Tall rig C30 with a 150% genny. (remember this is a TALL RIG & 150% genny! - you're C30 would be different) At about 45 deg apparent wind/ 10 knots of true wind should get you about 5 knots boat speed (thus apparent wind speed will feel ~14 knots) At about 90 deg apparent wind/ 10 knots of true wind should get you about 6 1/2 knots boat speed (thus apparent wind speed will feel ~13 knots) http://www.catalina30.com/TechLib/Catalina%2030%20Polars.pdf remember these are expected max potential in ideal conditions, no need to fret that you don't often acheive these speeds ---- but its something to try for
Answer for Joe
Joe, Tide and current are related, however tide is the measure of the change in depth of the water whereas current is the measure of the speed of water across a fixed point. Old time sailors would wait for high tide so as to have a slack current and the most water under the keel, then as the tide would drop, the current would carry them out of the harbor. When in doubt, look it up. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
Joe, Tide and current are related, however tide is the measure of the change in depth of the water whereas current is the measure of the speed of water across a fixed point. Old time sailors would wait for high tide so as to have a slack current and the most water under the keel, then as the tide would drop, the current would carry them out of the harbor. When in doubt, look it up. Les Murray s/v Ceilidh '86 C-36 #560
Tide and Current
Joe Les explained it well. Tide goes up and down, currents go sideways and affect the speed of the boat over ground (SOG). They are, of course, related, and reasonably within synch of each other for each tide cycle. Tides DO NOT FLOW. They only go up and down. That's why tide tables have HEIGHTS, not speeds, and why current tables have speeds and directions, not heights. Stu
Joe Les explained it well. Tide goes up and down, currents go sideways and affect the speed of the boat over ground (SOG). They are, of course, related, and reasonably within synch of each other for each tide cycle. Tides DO NOT FLOW. They only go up and down. That's why tide tables have HEIGHTS, not speeds, and why current tables have speeds and directions, not heights. Stu
Tides and Speed
Stu, if you lived in Puget sound you may look at things differently. The water coming in at Admiralty Inlet sometimes reaches 6 knots. Try sailing against that in even 15 knots of wind. I know it raises the level, but it has to raise the entire sound sometimes 15 feet in six hours. That's a lot of water. As far as boat speed goes. I'm all for using all of the instruments available on my boat to make it go as fast as it can. Why go 3.8 knots when I can go 5.5 or 6 knots with a little effort on my part. So sailing is slow. Yes it is, but you can sometimes double your speed if you pay attention. Going fast is more fun! Getting where you are going an hour quicker is also an accomplishment. By the way, I've hit 12 knots riding a current before. Yes, it was speed over ground. Sail Fast! Live Slow! Sean
Stu, if you lived in Puget sound you may look at things differently. The water coming in at Admiralty Inlet sometimes reaches 6 knots. Try sailing against that in even 15 knots of wind. I know it raises the level, but it has to raise the entire sound sometimes 15 feet in six hours. That's a lot of water. As far as boat speed goes. I'm all for using all of the instruments available on my boat to make it go as fast as it can. Why go 3.8 knots when I can go 5.5 or 6 knots with a little effort on my part. So sailing is slow. Yes it is, but you can sometimes double your speed if you pay attention. Going fast is more fun! Getting where you are going an hour quicker is also an accomplishment. By the way, I've hit 12 knots riding a current before. Yes, it was speed over ground. Sail Fast! Live Slow! Sean
I don't care what name you give it...
...when the tide changes... the water moves! Yes, tides are measured by height, but they are not static. The level rises and falls twice a day. It is this movement between levels, this flow, that has a current-like nature. In my harbor, Mission Bay-San Diego, the tidal current in the main channel is very apparent simply by taking notice of the channel markers. You can see the current flowing around them. The seaweed streams off them like a waving flag. Therefore, my speed over ground is affected whenever I enter or leave the bay.
...when the tide changes... the water moves! Yes, tides are measured by height, but they are not static. The level rises and falls twice a day. It is this movement between levels, this flow, that has a current-like nature. In my harbor, Mission Bay-San Diego, the tidal current in the main channel is very apparent simply by taking notice of the channel markers. You can see the current flowing around them. The seaweed streams off them like a waving flag. Therefore, my speed over ground is affected whenever I enter or leave the bay.
speed photo
another attempt to show evidence of 5 kts sog in less than 10kts wind. Apparent wind is 45 deg. Current and waves almost abeam.
another attempt to show evidence of 5 kts sog in less than 10kts wind. Apparent wind is 45 deg. Current and waves almost abeam.
Attachments
Boats Don’t Read Current Tables
I can leave the current tables on board, opened to the appropriate page, and still my boat won’t pay any attention. It’s only concerned about how fast water molecules flow past it’s hull. Boat speed. Period. Sean, would you trim your boat any differently depending which direction the current flows? Is your recommendation for performance improvement is to move to the Admiralty Inlet? SOG is pretty meaningless in this type of discussion because current has no impact on how well the boat is performing in relationship to the surrounding water. Sure, it’s a lot more fun sailing with the current than against it, but current alone, has no impact on how you trim the sails.*box Allen, how far in the harbor are you? We may have the same problem in Alameda, Ca., we are about three miles down a narrow (no wider than 100 yds) ship channel. We usually bite the bullet and motor out – no fun doing 40-50 tacks in a very crowded channel. At 10kts WS, my C34 is somewhere in the mid-upper fours. In 15kts and “flat” water I can hit hull speed. However, my boat is “tricked out” somewhat, and your experience seems reasonable to me. If I can be critical about Catalina’s is that they tend to be on the heavy side and their performance in light conditions can be a bit lack luster. If you want sport boat performance, you need to buy a sport boat. But if it’s any consolation, those sport boat boys are living out of Coleman coolers, water jugs and no headroom. Remember this rule: “Speed costs, How fast can you afford to go?” How much are you willing to spend to get that last (consistent) half knot, $5k, $10k? There are a couple of things we did “on the cheap” to improve performance. We did a weights and measures thing this past summer and it’s surprising how easy it was to find a couple hundred pounds of superfluous gear. If it doesn’t make the boat go faster, leave it at home. Don’t keep your water tanks topped off. Water is truly dead weight. Bring only the amount of water you need for the trip. How well are you trimmed fore and aft? The newer, step through “sugar scoop” sterns are much more sensitive to fore and aft trim than the older, “IOR” style sterns. Are you dragging stern? Take weight out of the lazerettes if you are not getting a smooth bubble stream off your stern (hearing gurgling is definitely a bad sign). If that doesn’t work, move crew to the leeward and forward. Try aligning your two bladed prop with the strut (Paint a mark on the shaft). While not as good as a folding prop, you will cut your drag significantly, and without spending a couple grand. Are you a sail trim tweaker? We find that we need to be very aggressive trimmers on light air days (drives my wife nuts!). So you got $5-10k burning a hole in your pocket? First, buy a folding two blade prop. Sure, prop walk will be a major hassle, and you probably will loose some top end motoring speed, but you’ll be kissing your bucket dragging days goodbye. Fair your bottom. Get rid of that ablative paint and replace it with the hard racing stuff. Wet sand a least the forward sections to get rid of the brush strokes. Take comfort that you will be putting your diver’s kids through college, but at least you’ll be the fastest C30 in the marina. How well do you point? Do you need Cunningham to pull the main’s draft forward? If so, time for a new main. I’d consider replacing it with one that is free footed or has a shelf. Full battens tend to flatten the sail while partial battens will allow you to trim for more belly a lot more efficiently. Go to adjustable fair lead cars – it makes tweaking the jib a lot easier. Speaking of trim, has your rigger checked the rig lately? How is your mast rake? Are you getting slight weather helm (5 degree rudder angle at low speeds?) If not, try moving crew to leeward to induce a little helm. One pound aloft is equal to 5-10 pounds on deck. Have you considered replacing halyards and topping lifts with smaller diameter (and lighter weight) Spectra or Technora? Less weight aloft will make you a lot more responsive to slight changes in wind. As you can see, one can go to the poorhouse trying to get that last half knot. To put things in perspective, I occasionally sail on a boat that is quite capable of doing 6 kts in 10kts of wind. However, it only costs about a third mil, has a reacher larger than my old apartment…
I can leave the current tables on board, opened to the appropriate page, and still my boat won’t pay any attention. It’s only concerned about how fast water molecules flow past it’s hull. Boat speed. Period. Sean, would you trim your boat any differently depending which direction the current flows? Is your recommendation for performance improvement is to move to the Admiralty Inlet? SOG is pretty meaningless in this type of discussion because current has no impact on how well the boat is performing in relationship to the surrounding water. Sure, it’s a lot more fun sailing with the current than against it, but current alone, has no impact on how you trim the sails.*box Allen, how far in the harbor are you? We may have the same problem in Alameda, Ca., we are about three miles down a narrow (no wider than 100 yds) ship channel. We usually bite the bullet and motor out – no fun doing 40-50 tacks in a very crowded channel. At 10kts WS, my C34 is somewhere in the mid-upper fours. In 15kts and “flat” water I can hit hull speed. However, my boat is “tricked out” somewhat, and your experience seems reasonable to me. If I can be critical about Catalina’s is that they tend to be on the heavy side and their performance in light conditions can be a bit lack luster. If you want sport boat performance, you need to buy a sport boat. But if it’s any consolation, those sport boat boys are living out of Coleman coolers, water jugs and no headroom. Remember this rule: “Speed costs, How fast can you afford to go?” How much are you willing to spend to get that last (consistent) half knot, $5k, $10k? There are a couple of things we did “on the cheap” to improve performance. We did a weights and measures thing this past summer and it’s surprising how easy it was to find a couple hundred pounds of superfluous gear. If it doesn’t make the boat go faster, leave it at home. Don’t keep your water tanks topped off. Water is truly dead weight. Bring only the amount of water you need for the trip. How well are you trimmed fore and aft? The newer, step through “sugar scoop” sterns are much more sensitive to fore and aft trim than the older, “IOR” style sterns. Are you dragging stern? Take weight out of the lazerettes if you are not getting a smooth bubble stream off your stern (hearing gurgling is definitely a bad sign). If that doesn’t work, move crew to the leeward and forward. Try aligning your two bladed prop with the strut (Paint a mark on the shaft). While not as good as a folding prop, you will cut your drag significantly, and without spending a couple grand. Are you a sail trim tweaker? We find that we need to be very aggressive trimmers on light air days (drives my wife nuts!). So you got $5-10k burning a hole in your pocket? First, buy a folding two blade prop. Sure, prop walk will be a major hassle, and you probably will loose some top end motoring speed, but you’ll be kissing your bucket dragging days goodbye. Fair your bottom. Get rid of that ablative paint and replace it with the hard racing stuff. Wet sand a least the forward sections to get rid of the brush strokes. Take comfort that you will be putting your diver’s kids through college, but at least you’ll be the fastest C30 in the marina. How well do you point? Do you need Cunningham to pull the main’s draft forward? If so, time for a new main. I’d consider replacing it with one that is free footed or has a shelf. Full battens tend to flatten the sail while partial battens will allow you to trim for more belly a lot more efficiently. Go to adjustable fair lead cars – it makes tweaking the jib a lot easier. Speaking of trim, has your rigger checked the rig lately? How is your mast rake? Are you getting slight weather helm (5 degree rudder angle at low speeds?) If not, try moving crew to leeward to induce a little helm. One pound aloft is equal to 5-10 pounds on deck. Have you considered replacing halyards and topping lifts with smaller diameter (and lighter weight) Spectra or Technora? Less weight aloft will make you a lot more responsive to slight changes in wind. As you can see, one can go to the poorhouse trying to get that last half knot. To put things in perspective, I occasionally sail on a boat that is quite capable of doing 6 kts in 10kts of wind. However, it only costs about a third mil, has a reacher larger than my old apartment…
George
You make some great points as far as increasing the speed of the boat. I wasn't saying boats are faster in Puget Sound. Obviously hull speed is what we are seeking. Not speed over ground. A good sailer uses everything available to him, as you obviously do, to go faster, including currents. We have fast current. You don't. It's as simple as that.
You make some great points as far as increasing the speed of the boat. I wasn't saying boats are faster in Puget Sound. Obviously hull speed is what we are seeking. Not speed over ground. A good sailer uses everything available to him, as you obviously do, to go faster, including currents. We have fast current. You don't. It's as simple as that.
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