Hull / Deck Joint

[JimLor]

So, after removing the ports (2 forward both sides) on our Pearson 28 the water entering the boat increased. There were indications that the ports were leaking and several plexiglas panes were cracked or discolored so I don't mind replacing them - but I was hoping the leaks would stop.

In my inspections I can see an area where a previous owner stuffed what looks like putty into the joint on the port side over the galley area. That's why I'm pretty sure the leak is the hull/deck joint. Not being a naval architect, I would picture the deck molding fitting over the hull and leaving the joint immune from topside leaks - I guess I'm wrong?

Has anyone addressed a deck/hull joint leak and if so, any notes, recommendations, or stories would be welcome - references too! Would I be correct in assuming that I have to remove the toe rail to get at the joint? Or better said, just where do the deck and hull meet - and leak?

I am reading a couple of Hal Roth's books and note that even the boat he had built specifically for their first trip leaked an impressive ammount. At some point he removed the toe rail and fiberglassed over the joint - I'm not going that far at this point! I knew his frustration when at one point he removed a port and glassed over the opening - without reducing the leaking any noteworthy amount!

I did look thru this entire forum and didn't find answers to my questions. I do appreciate any responses. I may have mentioned before that I consider this to be our "school boat." It is our reentry into sailing and our introduction to boat ownership and maintenance.

Thanks.
Jim

 

[RON20406]

Jim, guessing is not good enough. You need to determine exactly where the leak originates before attempting any repair. You might want to try some food coloring in water poured/injected in suspicious areas. It might take awhile, but you will eventually find your leak. Sometimes, the leak may originate in another area of the boat. It may not even be your toe rail that is leaking. Take your time, use common sense and you'll solve your problem. Don't waste time and money with repairs until you're certain you found the leak. Good luck and good sailing, Ron

 

[JimLor]

Ron - thanks for the thoughtful and thought provoking reply. I like the colored water trick and will use. I did think for a bit about this last night and there is more to the story of why I think it's the toe rail/joint. We bought the boat in Sep (on jackstands where it'll stay until Mar). Did see weep marks where the ports leaked a bit and also one deadlight was loose (lens). Also saw water damage on the aft port sole and teak trip under the stovetop. Even in pretty heavy rain this did not produce much, if any, water intrusion into the boat.

Here's what did: I removed the 4 cabin ports, covered the openings with heavy plastic and duct tape, and ran a blue tarp over the boom. After a fairly heavy rain there was more water in the boat and after a really heavy couple of rain days there was more water in the boat - in the areas I mentioned had visibile damage. In looking around that's when I saw the putty stuffed in the hull/deck joint from the inside.

I think the difference is the tarp and that it is dumping water onto/against the toe rail in a prodigious amount hence the more water in the boat. Now, it's not going to sink on dry land or fill up, but there was probably a gallon of water between the bilge and sole/fiberglas joint under the stove. I understand and accept that 25 year old boats will probably leak somewhat, but in the spirit of using her as a school boat, I'd like to fix as many leaks as I can.

So, I will use the colored water suggestion and concentrate on the toe rail and see what happens. I'm fairly confident it's not the grabrail, fairleads, or other cabin top "stuff" as they are pretty much covered by the tarp.

I'll post what I find out (do have to consider the freezing wx here and it may take time) and I'd still appreciate any ideas, stories, or suggestions.

Still have this question; is the deck/hull joint under the toe rail? I'm assuming that using sealant or epoxy from the inside is a futile approach as it would probably just move the water intrusion somewhere else.

Thanks again Ron.
Jim

 

[Stu Jackson]

Jim, you might want to Google around for a Pearson website or yahoo group. I'm sure someone somewhere has some diagrams as to how the hull/deck joint was built so you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[JimLor]

Stu - thanks for the suggestion; and not to be a smart-ass, but this is pearsonowners.com! I just did google and got this:

"The hull and deck are through-bolted on an outward flange, and the resulting sandwich is then covered with a plastic rubrail. This method of attachment is strong but the outward facing flange is a bit ungainly and exposes the flange to damage in the event of a collision. The flange is topped off with an attractive oiled teak toerail."

So thanks Stu!

 

[RON20406]

Jim, if you have storage areas (port and starboard as I do in my Pearson) in your vee-berth along the hull, look inside and upward in these open areas and you will be able to see if the flange is inward or outward facing. Mine is not through-bolted but rather bonded with 5200 and attached with large machine screws. I can easily see the joint with the excess sealant. If you want to be certain that it is sealed the length of the boat, you might have to drop the ceiling panels under the deck on both port and starboard for inspection. You can also look behind your AC/DC panel and in the storage areas in the head and lazarette. Do the same for both sides to gain access the entire length of the boat. Then, do your experiment with the colored food dye and try to track down your leak. You should be able to see almost the entire hull deck joint on port and starboard if you approach it in this way. Once you've located the leak, you can either dig out the old material and recaulk or the proper way is to try to remove the screw/bolt at the leak, pry it open with a wedge, scrape out the old material, recaulk and retap the hull deck connection with news screws/bolts and retorque. You should be able to solve your problem without major surgery. Keep us posted with your progress or if you have any additional questions. Good luck and good sailing, Ron

 

[JimLor]

Ron - I do have the storage areas and I can see the joint above the galley (where it's leaking) and it sure looks like the flange(s) go outboard. Looks like the hull rises verically and then turns outboard and the same with the cabintop. The more I think about it the more I hope that the leak is coming thru the jib rail or toerail. I'll try the colored water on the jib rail first as I expect that would be the easiest to rebed (that also works against it being the location of the leak). If I didn't mention it before, the teak/filberglas "floor" joint under the stove and in the aft cabin at the bottom of the foul wx gear is discolored from water - the jib rail runs outside of both.

You mention pulling out the sealant and recaulking - from the inside I assume. As I look into this joint from the storage area the only "caulk" I can see is where someone clearly stuck it in in an attempt to stop the leak - it doesn't look like the joint is caulked along the entire inside joint (or maybe I just haven't used a flashlight to look deeper into the joint.

Thanks again Ron, I do appreciate your time and effort in making suggestions - gives me a solid foundation to start from.

 

[RON20406]

Jim, check your private mail. We can sort this out better and you can post the results when completed. Best, Ron

 

[Ariel]

Jim,

Your hull has an outward flange joined to the deck with bolts that also go through the plastic trim that covers the outside of the joint. The teak toe rail covers the bolt heads and the bolts under the teak rail plugs also are part of the hull/deck attachment. You are correct in that you must remove the toe rail to get to the joint. Also you must remove ALL the bolts under the toe rail to remove the plastic trim to get to the hull/deck joint. Sealing the outside of the joint may not stop the leak if water is entering the joint from a bolt hole.

By the nature of the outward joint any leak usually runs to the outside of the hull. There can be some "weeping" to the inside and most of this moisture is so small that it runs down between the hull and the hull liner. The adhesive/sealants avaliable when these boats were built, between 1985 and 1989, cured to a smooth, hard material and does not flex. Our boat has some of this adhesive squeesed out to the inside and it can be mistaken as an attempt to repair a leaky joint.

A typical leak area for our vintage Pearson (mine is a 1987 P36-2) is a cracked through hull fitting at the deck scupper and/or the elbow below the through hull fitting. I chased a leak for a year before we discovered the cracked fitting. We found the crack by flooding the deck and watching the line under the scupper.

Good hunting,

Dave
s/v ARIEL

 

[Quint]

Lifeline Stanchions?

Hello Jim,

Have you considered/checked to see whether the leaks might be coming from under the lifeline stanchion bases, i.e., the now-likely dried-out/cracked/powdery gaskets Pearson chose to use when they built the boat? I have heard numerous owners of late-1980's Pearsons say that the stanchion bases were leak sources (and deck core rot sources, as a result).

My own 1987 Pearson 31-2 has an annoying leak on the port side deck which I have been chasing for about 2 years now. The fiberglass shelf area under the deck above/behind the port settee collects water after it rains and, unless I keep a few hand towels in place up there to soak it up (which I then have to change out with dry ones before the next rain), the water eventually makes its way down under my galley floor boards (which sit in fiberglass pans), causing them to swell, buckle, etc., etc.

Thus far, I have rebedded port lights, caulked the toerail, checked various deck fittings, inlcuding a fresh water tank inlet directly above where the water seems to hit the shelf--but all to no avail. I am pretty convinced at this point that the stanchion bases are probably the culprits for this troubling water intrusion from somewhere above the deck. I've figured, too, that the water is likely not just dripping straight down but running perhaps some short distance along the molded-in headliner before it finally drips/pours (occaionally) down into my sheld area/storage compartment below the deck ahead of my galley.

You may want to consider/investigate this issue further on your own boat. Even if the stanchions appear firm/strong/well-attached when you pull on them, it's still possible that the gaskets underneath are dried out/cracked/no longer water-tight underneath the bases--Pearson did not use caulking, just some kind of vinyl/rubber-like one-piece punched gaskets [probably believed to be faster/cheaper/less messy than caulk].

I've found a great site for technical assistance with making the anticipated repairs (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/rebedding_hardware) and am intending this winter--now that racing season is done for me for a couple of months or so--to pull each of my stanchions one at a time and do the whole core drill out, epoxy fill/tap/thread and butyl tape re-bed/be-bolt process. Even if this turns out not to be the only source of these blasted leaks, I really can't see a downside (other than time, effort and dirt) to re-bedding the nearly 25-year-old deck hardware that is theoretically supposed to help keep me and my crew from falling overboard at unwanted times.

Let me know if you do it and, if so, it helps solve your leaking problems...

Best of Luck (I'm pulling for you...)

Quint

 

[JimLor]

Quint - thanks for your reply and it sounds like we're chasing the same problem. I did find (although I don't think it's the leak) that whomever installed a nice cleat on the port side mid-ships did a crappy job. The two aft bolts are good but the two forward aren't even snugged down. They aren't because this cretin drilled into a bump-out and just stuck the bolts into the cleat - no way to tighten them - heck, one of them doesn't even have a bolt attached.

Redoing this cleat will be my first attempt at removing a deck mounting, dremeling out the core, repotting with epoxy, bedding with butyl tape, and using G-10 as a backing plate.

Our survey did show the bow of the boat had higher than normal moisture readings and he recommended rebedding the bow pulpit - I'll do that and probably the rest of the stantions as I can get to them.

This is fun - at first I thought the ports were the source of the leaks - pulled them all out and...nope, while they needed replacing they aren't "the source." Well, if nothing else chasing leaks will keep my busy and out of trouble. How are coming with rebedding your stanchions? Any words of wisdom?

Best of luck,
Jim

 

[Barnacle Bill]

If I am not mistaken, the newer Pearson 28's had a shoe box design hull to deck joint, which can have it's problems. But, it was mentioned that someone had caulked on the inside of the boat. If you have leaks, one must caulk on the outside to prevent water from coming in.