How Weight affects Performance

vegatern · Oct 7, 2009

I read in one of Sidney Rosen's newsletters that each thousand pounds will put the Vega 1 inch lower in the water, if that helps.
Craig

prius12002 · Oct 8, 2009

No idea how accurate this is, and it doesn't really answer your question directly, but this site

SailCalculatorPro: A Handy Tool for Comparing Boats

www.image-ination.com

gives the number as 657#/inch. Real-world experience (like Sidney's) may differ.

Bill

bobnlesafloat · Oct 8, 2009

High Kenneth,

I can't offer definitive weights, as I've never (and wouldn't dare) totted up exactly how much weight we've burdened our Vega with, but as we're living aboard full time for 6-8 months each year, its likely that Spring Fever is carrying more than most: -
We've two crew and their personal clothing/gear and probably a bit more than the 'normal' load of ropes, fenders, tools, spare parts, dinghy, outboard and general yachtie junk/odds & sods that would be found on a 'weekending' boat, in addition we've upped the water capacity by 150 litres with an extra tank in the front of each cockpit locker, in addition to a 30 litre fuel tank in the stern locker, and sometimes carry as much 90 litres besides in cans, we've got close to 40kg of batteries fitted, about 50kgs of anchors, plus a similar weight of chain aboard and we're often burdened with bulk supplies depending on what's cheaper where we are than where we're going - a prime example is that last week before we crossed from Greece into Turkish waters, so shipped a good stock of wine, spirits, beer, muesli, coffee and salami aboard (two BIG supermarket trolley loads, so perhaps 80 - 90kg in total - Lesley needs a lot of wine!)

Our waterline is down a touch (certainly less than an inch) though the load effect is perhaps being offset by the higher salinity of the water here in the eastern Mediterannean? Though I don't remember it being any worse back in the Atlantic. As you've already discovered, distribution/balance is the biggest problem and Spring Fever usually sits a bit 'tail heavy' and whilst she won't win any races in this trim, she's certainly not been slowed down significantly, nor have we ever had any safety concerns and with experience we have Iearned to work around the weight: we never take any water from the bow tank until the stern tanks are virtually dry or the bow goes 'light' and we point to windward much worse. You can also use the extra weight to our advantage: on long offshore passages, especially if big-seas are likely, we move close to 100kg of anchor, chain and either fuel or water cans into the keel - fit subsatntial strong-backs which 'lock'
the floorboards in place in the event of a knockdown - and have found that our Vega stands up to her canvas and the seas, much better.

Hope this helps,
Bob Carlisle, Spring Fever 1776.

mageekenneth@... wrote:From: mageekenneth mageekenneth@...
Subject: [AlbinVega] How Weight affects Performance
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 6 October, 2009, 11:24 AM
I am trying to get information on how much cargo the vega will carry. Has anyone ever loaded the vega to the point that it seemed "too heavy" Provided the weight is properly distributed and kept low in the boat, how much wieght can I expect to carry. Fuel, water, batteries, tools, scuba gear, and food are heavy, and I don't want to overload the boat, but the weight is adding up rather quickly.

Also to the memebers that have been cruising, how much diesel, and gasoline for the outboard would you guys think is an amount adequate to have on board when cruising in remote areas? (Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras, Coasta Rica, Panama region). I would like to have a reserve capacity of around 30% just for "oooopps", and "what ifs".

Trying to find the space, equally distribute, and balance the load is more of a task than I had immagined.

I appreciate the help.

bobnlesafloat · Oct 8, 2009

PS: Lesley has just reminded me that we're also carrying a 50 litre holding tank under the starboard side of the forecabin berth, about 20kg of charts (they stow rolled up inside lengths four-inch plastic drain pipe, one suspended on bungees to the timber trim on each side of the forecabin roof - works a treat) and about 20kg of books - both Pilot and general reading.

Don't worry about it - you'll run out of space before you sink her!

rogerefairest · Oct 12, 2009

High Kenneth,

I have been doing ours one for the last 3 years (Ocean Sunrise) and just about to be ready to go (6 more months).
So far I have put in most of the non supplies “essential” chain, windvane, windlass, anchor, galley, liferaft, dingy, sails (6 of them), lines (400 mtrs of 12Cm, “light” ones), heater, etc.
All of it I recon must come to around 350Kg, however I have taken the inboard out which has given me an extra 120Kg.
The net effect is that I still have about 1 inch left on the water line, the down side is that using the formula provided by Bill, it gives me that I still have another 3 inches more to go down by if I include all of the gear I would like including consumables, however I am after some very out of the way spots
Bob is absolutely right though, I am already running out of space and it will take quite a bit of coercing to be able to fit the rest.
Ref the sailing in Central America, I dare say that outboards are very common (I know that even in the most out off the way places in Venezuela they are) in the area therefore petrol should not be a problem, however diesel might be a different proposition.
On the upside diesel engines consume far less, so it should balance its self out, ref reserve, just fill in were ever you can!
How it affects performance, I went on a cruise 2 years ago and we were loaded with food and water for 15 days with pretty much the same equipment (plus the inboard) as now, she was at the waterline then or a little bit bellow, she felt a bit heavy but handled better at sea once she was properly balanced.
What I did noticed though was that if the bilge is over full (ie splashing over the boards) she behaved kind of “drunk”; which I put down to the water taking over in every heeling movement.
So as long as everything is tight, she should be fine or at least that is what I hope!
When are you starting your trip?
Cheers
Roger

davidcantrell100 · Oct 12, 2009

Dont forget that if you are traveling in Central America to count the weight of a metal ammo box, and an AK47.
Dave C #3201 "mist"

________________________________
From: Roger Fairest <rogerefairest@...>
To: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, October 12, 2009 12:27:29 PM
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: How Weight affects Performance

High Kenneth,

I have been doing ours one for the last 3 years (Ocean Sunrise) and just about to be ready to go (6 more months).
So far I have put in most of the non supplies “essential” chain, windvane, windlass, anchor, galley, liferaft, dingy, sails (6 of them), lines (400 mtrs of 12Cm, “light” ones), heater, etc..
All of it I recon must come to around 350Kg, however I have taken the inboard out which has given me an extra 120Kg.
The net effect is that I still have about 1 inch left on the water line, the down side is that using the formula provided by Bill, it gives me that I still have another 3 inches more to go down by if I include all of the gear I would like including consumables, however I am after some very out of the way spots
Bob is absolutely right though, I am already running out of space and it will take quite a bit of coercing to be able to fit the rest.
Ref the sailing in Central America, I dare say that outboards are very common (I know that even in the most out off the way places in Venezuela they are) in the area therefore petrol should not be a problem, however diesel might be a different proposition.
On the upside diesel engines consume far less, so it should balance its self out, ref reserve, just fill in were ever you can!
How it affects performance, I went on a cruise 2 years ago and we were loaded with food and water for 15 days with pretty much the same equipment (plus the inboard) as now, she was at the waterline then or a little bit bellow, she felt a bit heavy but handled better at sea once she was properly balanced.
What I did noticed though was that if the bilge is over full (ie splashing over the boards) she behaved kind of “drunk”; which I put down to the water taking over in every heeling movement.
So as long as everything is tight, she should be fine or at least that is what I hope!
When are you starting your trip?
Cheers
Roger

imbissfrank · Oct 13, 2009

Or in any major big city in the U.S for that matter !Frank Gallardo Jr
sv Cin Cin V-2184
"May the warm wind at your back not be your own"

pelagicasd · Oct 13, 2009

Just a couple of quick comments, diesel fuel is really common in Mexico and I would presume throughout Central America, price in town is comparable to most US gas stations. They do get alot from the prices they pay. It builds the roads, schools and hospitals. Most of the larger fishing boats are running on diesel.

There is freqently a surcharge imposed by marina operators of a dollar or two a gallon and restricitions on bringing fuel through the marina from an outside source.

There is an over abundance of smaller fishing boats runnning on gas. These are usually open skiffs around 20 feet long and running on big outboards, usually over 70 hp. Typical crew is 3 and they are working smaller gill nets or fishing with handlines. They need big outboards to move a skiff full of fish. There was a problem with outboard theft when we were in Mexico. 3 to 6 HP motors were okay but when you started getting into the 9.9 to say 25 HP or so problems with them leaving the boat in the middle of the night developed. Big outboard breaks down at sea and the fisherman could die. 9.9 or better will get the skiff home slowly.

We got around the fuel restriction by having a sunbrella bag made that would fit our folding cart. We sized it to carry several loads of grocery bags or a 5 gallon fuel jug. All of this information is dated. We cruised Mexico 10 years ago. Tha vast majority of the folks we ran into were wonderful people. In two season we had one incident in which a pole I'd left out on a rail mount overnight was stolen while at anchor.

Just as an after thought, we were to heavy. Light winds had us motoring way to much and the lower the boat is in the water the more diesel you burn. We carried to much food and to many spares. Most of the spares returned with us. Doing it again I'd carry less tools and spares only for essential equipment. Our abandon ship bag was way over supplied considering the EPIRB would most likely had us rescued in a day or two. Every 30 or 40 pounds you can take off of the boat will improve your sailing. It can also mean making an anchorage during the day instead of being tempted to try and enter at night.

We did that once and Judy kept yelling at me to drop the hook. I kept thinking the deeper we anchor the more chain I have to pull. I relented and dropped in 20 feet. Set the hook and woke up the next morning with a reef about 8 feet off of the stern. It was one of those moments when you know you're busted. There was no way I was going to be able to pull a hundred feet of chain without her waking up. I still hear about it!

Walt, S/V LyricTo: AlbinVega@yahoogroups.com
From: rogerefairest@...
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2009 09:27:29 -0700
Subject: Re: [AlbinVega] Re: How Weight affects Performance

High Kenneth,

I have been doing ours one for the last 3 years (Ocean Sunrise) and just about to be ready to go (6 more months).
So far I have put in most of the non supplies ?essential? chain, windvane, windlass, anchor, galley, liferaft, dingy, sails (6 of them), lines (400 mtrs of 12Cm, ?light? ones), heater, etc.
All of it I recon must come to around 350Kg, however I have taken the inboard out which has given me an extra 120Kg.
The net effect is that I still have about 1 inch left on the water line, the down side is that using the formula provided by Bill, it gives me that I still have another 3 inches more to go down by if I include all of the gear I would like including consumables, however I am after some very out of the way spots
Bob is absolutely right though, I am already running out of space and it will take quite a bit of coercing to be able to fit the rest.
Ref the sailing in Central America, I dare say that outboards are very common (I know that even in the most out off the way places in Venezuela they are) in the area therefore petrol should not be a problem, however diesel might be a different proposition.
On the upside diesel engines consume far less, so it should balance its self out, ref reserve, just fill in were ever you can!
How it affects performance, I went on a cruise 2 years ago and we were loaded with food and water for 15 days with pretty much the same equipment (plus the inboard) as now, she was at the waterline then or a little bit bellow, she felt a bit heavy but handled better at sea once she was properly balanced.
What I did noticed though was that if the bilge is over full (ie splashing over the boards) she behaved kind of ?drunk?; which I put down to the water taking over in every heeling movement.
So as long as everything is tight, she should be fine or at least that is what I hope!
When are you starting your trip?
Cheers
Roger

Vega1447 · Oct 14, 2009

Hi - after a very helpful email from Steve Birch it has dawned on me
that the 4-inch conduit pipe that leads from the opening/grille at port
forward end of cockpit is for the ventilation system, not the engine air
intake!!

The pipe was disconnected from the grille when I bought the boat - seems
to be damaged, presumably the reason why it was disconnected.

Like many "Vega mysteries" I left it alone while tackling more immediate
problems.

Presumably as a consequence the passive ventilation system has been
pulling in stale dieselly air from the engine compartment for the last 5
years :-( - there certainly is a noticeable background diesel smell
throughout the boat?

*Question:* does the 4-inch conduit connect somewhere in the small
cupboard under the cooker on port side of boat?

Thanks

John

V1447 Breakaway

bobnlesafloat · Oct 14, 2009

When we got Spring Fever, it too had a badly crushed flexi-pipe, which in the first instance we renewed; as you suspect it runs in the void beneath the locker which is under the locker and threads into the fibreglass 'box'/duct which runs along front of the locker beneath the port saloon berth - this is the 'unique' Vega passive ventilation system. To be honest I never thought it made much difference to the below decks temperature, so when the flexi-pipe got crushed again/was in the way of the extra water tank I wanted to install and at a similar time the 'box' under the port saloon berth started to come adrift, I ripped the whole lot out, so losing the ventilation sysstem but gaining a shed-load of extra storage space.

The engine's ventilation system is constructed similarly: there's a flexi-pipe connected beneath the dorade vent on the stern deck, which is connected onto a fibreglass box-duct at the centre-bottom/rear of the stern locker, this runs along the starboard side of the engine bay and exits just below the rear of the engine - it's the flat bit on the floor and provides a perfect base to sit our engine start battery on and a spare can of diesel. Once again on Spring Fever, this no longer exists: The flexipipe was invariably getting crushed on this too, so when the dorade vent surrendered to UV degradation (it was always in the way when we used the boarding ladder too) I ripped the whole lot out and filled in the hole through the deck, plus the adjacent one - that had a blank cap over it and I suspected it may have been for the fan-vent on an earlier petrol engine? - to give us a neat/flat stern deck. I had planned to route a possibly rigid pipe from
the cockpit grille, into the engine bay to replace this lost ventilation, but having not got around to it for two years now and noticed no ill effect on the engine, I'll probably not bother.

Hope this helps
Bob C
AV1776

j.hunter9999 · Oct 14, 2009

Hi John,

On Bella, the conduit runs aft beneath the stove/cooker/cupboard, into the port berth (there is an opening in the aft bulkhead). From there, there is a piece of conduit running from the aft bulkhead to an air intake cowling in the cockpit wall. This seems to do a pretty good job of drawing in air. However, I'm not thrilled with its placement in the cockpit (cockpit floodings being what they are). But, it works until I get other projects done.

Take care,

Jack
Bella - V2620

Vega1447 · Oct 14, 2009

Thanks Bob.

When you removed the damaged passive ventilation flexi-pipe, did you
blank off the
"fibreglass 'box'/duct which runs along front of the locker beneath
the port saloon berth"?

Really I'm wondering whether the passive vent system (given that the
flexi-pipe is not longer connected to the box) is inducing dieselly
air from engine compartment to flow into saloon?

Thanks again

John

V1447 Breakaway

Bob Carlisle wrote:

Vega1447 · Oct 14, 2009

Thanks Jack
that seems to be my setup too (except that the conduit has been crushed).

I did wonder too about the air intake cowling/grille in the cockpit wall
- in the event of cockpit flooding would much water get in?

Perhaps the pressure of water compresses the blades of the grille (the
rotary type) together reducing intake of water once the grille is
rotated into the closed position?

Would it make more sense to extend the conduit back to one of the
mushroom vents on the afterdeck?

John

V1447 Breakaway

j.hunter9999 wrote:

fotofundi · Oct 14, 2009

Hi Bob
As an aside from this thread, I see you have moved over to Turkey and wonder if you have any plans to call in at Cyprus later, either this or next year? If so, let me know your ETA and I'll make sure there are a few cold beers waiting! There is another Vega - 'Jonesta' - on the south Turkish coast - I think she is in Dogus Turgutreis Marina near Bodrum
Cheers
David
'Little Star' V1696 in Latchi Harbour

bobnlesafloat · Oct 14, 2009

Re: Fibreglass Duct - Not blanked off, but removed completely; its just an L shaped section of GRP, tacked with epoxy resin to the inside of the hull, if you remove the port saloon bunk base, lever it free of the hull and then carefully grind off any sharp/sticky-out bits that remain, you'll increase storage capacity in that locker by at least 1/3rd and be able to clean out the bilge drain (see next paragraph) too.

Re: Diesel Smell: It may be due to fumes entering the vent, but a more likely scenario would be a diesel leak/spillage permeating into the accomodation area: The lockers, including (in part at least) the cockpit lockers, drain into the bilge via the saloon-berth lockers, if you open the sternward sliding door of the starboard saloon berth locker and feel around where the locker-front meets the hull (it's immediately under the sliding door, towards the forward end of the doorway, you will discover a small 'slot' in the fibreglass. If you're lucky, this is where any spilt/leaked diesel/water will quickly drain - it exits into the battery box and onward to the bilge. I say 'if you're lucky' because the accumulation of 30+years worth of dust and crap blocks them up, so at best, any water/diesel will only slowly percolate its way through to the bilges. The first time I cleared ours out, it took me about two hours with a length of bent wire before I
brought in the big-guns and jet-washed them through; since then I've made a point of cleaning/washing them through at the end of every season - there's a surprising accumulation of grunge each year. I refer to these vents in the plural, as there's one in the port locker (similar location) too, but if you've still got the ventilation duct fitted, you can only access it from the lower (battery box) end, which makes clearing it out even harder.

Bob

Vega1447 · Oct 14, 2009

Thanks again Bob.

That is a really clear explanation - and only really clear explanations
work for me :-(

All the best

John

V1447 Breakaway

Bob Carlisle wrote:

j.hunter9999 · Oct 14, 2009

John,

I think more water than I am comfortable with would come in if the cockpit got flooded. I did consider routing to one of the vents on the transom. However, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that area, yet. I may remove both vents and put a locker back there for propane. Since I haven't settled on what to do with the galley, I also am not making a decision on that yet.

In any case, I'll likely route it somewhere on the transom.

Take care,
Jack
Bella - V2620

tim_klynn · Dec 2, 2009

I got to test the "each thousand pounds will put the Vega an inch lower in the water" theory this fall. I was putting the boat in the water on a steep ramp and had just disconnected the trailer from the truck to attach a 30' strap to roll the boat and trailer out into the lake, when I heard the plastic wheel chocks behind the trailer wheels start to crack.

When the chocks let go, the trailer and boat took off into the lake. Luckily, the the boat and trailer went out parallel to the floating dock next to the ramp and I was able to grab a line and stop the boat. It was also lucky that I hadn't unstrapped the boat from the 2000 lb plus trailer. The boat became the trailers "flotation device" that suspended the trailer, preventing it from continuing on out a hundred or more feet down the submerged boat ramp.

I did notice that boat was sitting about 2" lower in the water with the trailer hanging off of it. However, I didn't take the boat out for a sail with the trailer attached to it, so I can't really say how the extra weight affects performance. In my case, I feel it is safe to say that it would have sailed a lot worse.