How to test inverter for shore power ELCI failure without ELCI present
- Thread starter Fredct
- Start date
@Fredct
That's what I was surmising and why I asked what I did in my last post.
again: Do you have a remote panel for the inverter?
And why I mentioned my Link which allows me to turn either the charger or inverter ON or OFF completely. I know that when I first installed my I/C, I did not install the Link at the same time, however, IIRC, the charger would default to ON, NOT the inverter. There was a manual switch on the top of the Freedom 15 to start the inverter, and of course the charger was OFF then because I only used the I function when not plugged in. I worked with this for maybe a year or so and then put in the Link 2000. Besides being a battery monitor, it is the remote control for the I/C. That's why I asked.
Further, now: Are you saying that when you are connected to shorepower and you turn your AC master from OFF to ON, your inverter turns on? When you're plugged in? If I understand your cryptic "1- shore to boat..." this means you ARE plugged into shorepower and there's power from the dock to the boat. Why would the inverter turn on when it's sensing shorepower is available? The ATS in the inverter should be using shorepower, not turning th einverter on when there is shorepower.
Do I understand what you're trying to say?
If so, let's continue.
One other thought, do you have power share turned on?
Finally, specifically, what model I/C do you have?
@dlochner Dave, for the time being, could you resist the urge to suggest other equipment for Fred until we figure out what his problem may be with what he's got? Thx.
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You can tell I am no captain! I have Xantrex Freedom HF Inverter/charger, model 1840. It's a rectangular box with a small remote monitor panel that is mounted on my DC panel. Here is what I meant:
The inverter/charger (from now on inverter) can be turned off at the monitor panel. If there is another switch on the unit proper, I do not see it.
Now for an improved description:
Shore power not connected, AC breaker OFF, inverter ON: infinity Ohm between ground and neutral at the plug. 0 ohm present at the AC post-inverter bus between the ground and the neutral. No ULCI fault but also no AC power going anywhere.
Shore power not connected, AC breaker ON, inverter ON: 170 kOhms between ground and neutral at the plug. 0 ohm present at the AC post-inverter bus between the ground and the neutral.
Shore power not connected, breaker ON, inverter OFF - I do not recall if i did this test or not. i want to say that I was reading infinity at the plug but need to confirm.
Shore power connected, breaker OFF, inverter OFF - I did not test this condition at the post-inverter bus.
Shore power connected, breaker ON, inverter Off - the inverter automatically turns on. ULCI trips
My tentative conclusion is per Maine Sail: there is a leak between neutral and ground and it is between the AC on-boat breaker and the inverter (or inside the inverter). The post-inverter wiring is likely correct. The pre-inverter wiring is not (or inverter is faulty).
The issue is that space is limited. In ideal world, I could simply isolate the inverter (effectively disconnect it) and test the wiring pre-inverter by itself. In the real world, the inverter is NOT easily accessible.
Clear as mud I think! Need to run. Will retest and document in table form.
The inverter/charger (from now on inverter) can be turned off at the monitor panel. If there is another switch on the unit proper, I do not see it.
Now for an improved description:
Shore power not connected, AC breaker OFF, inverter ON: infinity Ohm between ground and neutral at the plug. 0 ohm present at the AC post-inverter bus between the ground and the neutral. No ULCI fault but also no AC power going anywhere.
Shore power not connected, AC breaker ON, inverter ON: 170 kOhms between ground and neutral at the plug. 0 ohm present at the AC post-inverter bus between the ground and the neutral.
Shore power not connected, breaker ON, inverter OFF - I do not recall if i did this test or not. i want to say that I was reading infinity at the plug but need to confirm.
Shore power connected, breaker OFF, inverter OFF - I did not test this condition at the post-inverter bus.
Shore power connected, breaker ON, inverter Off - the inverter automatically turns on. ULCI trips
My tentative conclusion is per Maine Sail: there is a leak between neutral and ground and it is between the AC on-boat breaker and the inverter (or inside the inverter). The post-inverter wiring is likely correct. The pre-inverter wiring is not (or inverter is faulty).
The issue is that space is limited. In ideal world, I could simply isolate the inverter (effectively disconnect it) and test the wiring pre-inverter by itself. In the real world, the inverter is NOT easily accessible.
Clear as mud I think! Need to run. Will retest and document in table form.
@Fredct
Much clearer, thanks.
^^^ is the part I do not understand.
Why does the inverter automatically turn on when shorepower is connected? This sounds very strange if it is doing this by itself. What am I missing?
Am I correct that when you say shorepower "connected" the breaker on the dock is ON? You weren't clear on this.
Because the I/C most likely has its own ATS, the shorepower MUST come to the I/C first and only then to your AC breaker on the boat. Just think of the I as another AC power source and only ONE at a time can feed your AC breaker.
I'll go look up your manual now, haven't yet.
@Stu Jackson
Let me clarify the entire sequence:
UCLI Pedestal, Cord installed between pedestal and boat, in-boat AC breaker, inverter/charger, breaker/switch for GFIs...
My old-school dock has no ULCI and no switch at the outlet, just a breaker inside a locked box.
Now to your question:
In the condition NO cord (so no shore power), in-boat AC breaker ON, Inverter ON, 170 kohms between neutral and ground at the boat plug - See above if not clear.
In the condition shower power present, in boat AC breaker ON, inverter OFF, the inverter comes on (at the remote panel). If ULCI pedestal, trips immediately.
Now your comment is: inverter should remain OFF until turned on at the panel, regardless of presence of AC on the inverter inputs. You have me doubt my measurements. I will run that test again. More to follow.
Let me clarify the entire sequence:
UCLI Pedestal, Cord installed between pedestal and boat, in-boat AC breaker, inverter/charger, breaker/switch for GFIs...
My old-school dock has no ULCI and no switch at the outlet, just a breaker inside a locked box.
Now to your question:
In the condition NO cord (so no shore power), in-boat AC breaker ON, Inverter ON, 170 kohms between neutral and ground at the boat plug - See above if not clear.
In the condition shower power present, in boat AC breaker ON, inverter OFF, the inverter comes on (at the remote panel). If ULCI pedestal, trips immediately.
Now your comment is: inverter should remain OFF until turned on at the panel, regardless of presence of AC on the inverter inputs. You have me doubt my measurements. I will run that test again. More to follow.
@Fredct
Sure you do, please go look. I got the manual up on my screen. Googled your model description, Xantrex website pdf, has BOTH. Please, RTFM.
It says: Manual page 12
To change the inverter mode setting:By default the inverter mode is set to ON (“”). ON (“”) will put the inverter on standby. This means when shore power is present, AC shore power will pass through as AC output. And when shore power is not available, the inverter function will take power from the battery and provide AC output power. When the inverter mode is ON, you can manually turn the inverter function ON or OFF by using the Inverter Power button. See “Operating in Inverter Mode” on page 17.OFF (“”) will completely disable inverter function. This means when shore power is present, AC shore power will still pass through as AC output. However, when shore power is not available, the inverter function remains disabled and therefore no AC output power. When the inverter mode is OFF, you cannot manually turn the inverter function ON or OFF by using the Inverter Power button
So, try turning it off, either by changing the default setting, or page 14
14Freedom HF Owner’s GuideFreedom Inverter/Charger OperationDisplay Panel OperationThe Freedom HF features a display panel with three-digit LED display to show inverter, AC source, and battery status information.FeatureDescription1Inverter Power button•Press and hold for one second to turn the Freedom HF’s Inverter function ON or OFF (when AC Shore Power is NOT present.)•Press and hold for five seconds to adjust feature settings. Go back to page 11/12 for instructions.
@Stu Jackson I had read that same paragraph(!) when I encountered the fault the first time. My captain did not want me to go into heavy duty trouble shooting mode since we were not at home port, did not have all the tools etc.
I forgot all about it when we got to our normal base of operation.
I will need to create a large truth table. I think the answer is already there even though i did not see it.
I forgot all about it when we got to our normal base of operation.
I will need to create a large truth table. I think the answer is already there even though i did not see it.
@Fredct
Also read manual pages 17 & 20.
As I suggested earlier, turn the inverter off and back on when you need it, instead of having it do it by itself.
This may well resolve your problems.
Your boat, your choice. However you get there...
Also read manual pages 17 & 20.
As I suggested earlier, turn the inverter off and back on when you need it, instead of having it do it by itself.
This may well resolve your problems.
Maybe not, just RTFM.
Your boat, your choice.
However you get there...lin 1 = inverter enabled. lin 0 = inverter disabled.
1- The inverter does not break the bond when AC power is present. See 166 Ohms. I do not think that this is normal.
2- The plug shows 179 kOhms when inverter is on/enabled and 194 kOhms when inverter is off/disabled.
The inverter is either faulty or not working anymore. I am thinking of selling the boat so not sure that I will tackle the repair, perhaps just advise new owner of prospective issue.
1- The inverter does not break the bond when AC power is present. See 166 Ohms. I do not think that this is normal.
2- The plug shows 179 kOhms when inverter is on/enabled and 194 kOhms when inverter is off/disabled.
The inverter is either faulty or not working anymore. I am thinking of selling the boat so not sure that I will tackle the repair, perhaps just advise new owner of prospective issue.
If i wanted to own a sailboat, I should have stayed in school! The 166 Ohms (neutral to ground) may be normal. It could be simply a readout of the grounding setup on the utility side.