Yesterday the kids loved it because "it was bumpy", and the dolphins apparently like sail boats (It was really neat). Winds were around 15 - 18 kts and I sailed with only the main up. The sea was 2-3 feet and choppy, at one point the bow nosed up and slapped down kinda hard. I figured that any worse and my personal limits would be reached. Do you have personal limits? Are there official limits you have heard of? Lastly, if I'm reducing the sail I carry, is it better to use the main or jib only?
How much wind or sea state is too much?
- Thread starter spartacus99
- Start date
I've been out in similar conditions on a lake by myself and found that trying to reef a main sail is no fun without some help. So when the wind pipes up, I drop the main and go on the 110 jib alone. The boat seems to respond and sail better and 6.5 mph on one sail and in control is good enough for me.
Rely on your comfort and skill level plus the safety of your people on board. If in doubt, reef or drop sails! Chief
For me, it's too much when it's no fun anymore. I'm certain the boat can handle way more than I can.
I agree with ShotgunSlim: when the winds get too high for my liking, I prefer to drop the main altogether and just use the jib. It just seems easier. Plus, it leaves me the option of heaving to, if I need to catch my breath and relax the ol' pucker muscle for a minute.
I agree with ShotgunSlim: when the winds get too high for my liking, I prefer to drop the main altogether and just use the jib. It just seems easier. Plus, it leaves me the option of heaving to, if I need to catch my breath and relax the ol' pucker muscle for a minute.
I had no idea the jib did most of the work... here I am sailing with the lesser of the effective sails
There is no set and fast rule for any one individual. The max wind and sea state you should expose your crew to, is that which they most enjoy and you can safely return them to port from.
Baby steps. Slowly increase your and their exposure while improving skills. Scare the bejeepers out of yourself or others and that could end your or their sailing adventures forever.
I have sailed many boats, and other than those designed for one sail, have yet to see one that sails best under only one sail. A balanced sail works better.
When sailing under full foresail alone, especially a smaller sail like a working jib, the COE (centre of effort) is brought way forward of the CLR (centre of lateral resistance), increasing lee helm and reducing pointing ability. This can cause a knockdown if over-powered, with the foresail alone causing the boat to fall off when it needs to turn up to spill wind. Sailing to weather under foresail alone is about the best way to lay the boat down, especially if one gets knocked by a wave from windward, when the boat is trying to round up.
A mainsail alone moves the COE well aft, inducing weather helm. Also impairing pointing ability.
Reefing the main and jib (furler or smaller hank on), keeps the forces balanced and brings the whole COE down, (heeling moment in relation to righting moment) reducing heeling. Most boats properly reefed and balanced in high winds, feel like they are on rails and actually sail much better than with full sail in moderate winds.
The whole point is to match sail area (as low and as balanced as possible with just a little weather helm) to wind conditions.
Ramblin' Rod
www.sheenmarine.com
Baby steps. Slowly increase your and their exposure while improving skills. Scare the bejeepers out of yourself or others and that could end your or their sailing adventures forever.
I have sailed many boats, and other than those designed for one sail, have yet to see one that sails best under only one sail. A balanced sail works better.
When sailing under full foresail alone, especially a smaller sail like a working jib, the COE (centre of effort) is brought way forward of the CLR (centre of lateral resistance), increasing lee helm and reducing pointing ability. This can cause a knockdown if over-powered, with the foresail alone causing the boat to fall off when it needs to turn up to spill wind. Sailing to weather under foresail alone is about the best way to lay the boat down, especially if one gets knocked by a wave from windward, when the boat is trying to round up.
A mainsail alone moves the COE well aft, inducing weather helm. Also impairing pointing ability.
Reefing the main and jib (furler or smaller hank on), keeps the forces balanced and brings the whole COE down, (heeling moment in relation to righting moment) reducing heeling. Most boats properly reefed and balanced in high winds, feel like they are on rails and actually sail much better than with full sail in moderate winds.
The whole point is to match sail area (as low and as balanced as possible with just a little weather helm) to wind conditions.
Ramblin' Rod
www.sheenmarine.com
Rod has made the major point in this IMO, and I think it worth repeating.
If safety is the concern (and it should always be), then sailing with balanced main and headsail is what is needed.
As wind speed increases, the need to have the boat balanced becomes more important.
You sure as heck don't want the boat to keep trying to turn away/fall off from the wind in heavier winds. One moment of inattention and the boat could be on it's side.
I started sailing on dinghy sailboats and cats, where you can usually safely push the limits, so you can learn how a boat handles with different sail trim. It was amazing to me, at the time, how little changes in trim can improve handling. Trim it right and a sailboat's easier to sail. Trim is not just about speed.
The bigger the boat, the harder it is to notice the results. In a small boat you feel it right away.
It's not like someone would be willing to take a C22 out and intentionally lay the boat on it's ear, but with a good book on sail trim, and a day of moderate winds, you can experiment with different sail configurations and feel the results.
If safety is the concern (and it should always be), then sailing with balanced main and headsail is what is needed.
As wind speed increases, the need to have the boat balanced becomes more important.
You sure as heck don't want the boat to keep trying to turn away/fall off from the wind in heavier winds. One moment of inattention and the boat could be on it's side.
I started sailing on dinghy sailboats and cats, where you can usually safely push the limits, so you can learn how a boat handles with different sail trim. It was amazing to me, at the time, how little changes in trim can improve handling. Trim it right and a sailboat's easier to sail. Trim is not just about speed.
The bigger the boat, the harder it is to notice the results. In a small boat you feel it right away.
It's not like someone would be willing to take a C22 out and intentionally lay the boat on it's ear, but with a good book on sail trim, and a day of moderate winds, you can experiment with different sail configurations and feel the results.
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My first sailboat was a 12' Hobie catamaran and we would capsize her regularly and it was so much fun! It was also teaching us to learn to sail to the limits of her abilities and ours.
Great boat to learn on. This same concept is used by off road dirt motorcycle racers. Run so fast you crash in order to know your limits.
Chief
Great boat to learn on. This same concept is used by off road dirt motorcycle racers. Run so fast you crash in order to know your limits.
Chief
My and mates discomfort level is easily reached. I sailed 3 prior boats with a reef point in working jib and 2 reefs in main. I always reef down sooner than later. If in any doubt I double reef main and fly a storm jib. Better safe and slow but in control than white knuckled and in doubt. New sails on c22 will also be this way. It is a personal choice.
James
James
Exactly.
In regards to limits on the c22... I've seen posts that said a c22 was ok in 35knts with a skilled sailor . Anyone sailing in San Francisco bay with a c22 would know for sure. Of course rigging and sail config can make a huge difference.
I sail on San Francisco Bay in 25-35 knots all summer long. I sail on lots of different boats from trailerable 15 footers to 40 footers. I am a sailmaker.
I'd say 10 knots is too much wind for a beginner,
15 knots the upper limit for anybody who doesn't know how to reef,
20 knots is too much for someone who doesn't know how to depower their sails with cuningham/outhaul/vang/traveller/backstay,
.... and at 30 knots it is time for experts in trailerable boats like the C22 to head for the nearest bar to tell tall tales about how windy was out there.
The following advice is, IMO, appropriate for most all small lightweight trailerable boats:
Sailing upwind in over 15 knots of true wind in a Catalina 22, you're going to need to use a 60-80% jib with a 2nd reef in the mainsail. Downwind you can shake out the reef in 15 knots of wind. That's without hiking.
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General Techniques for High Wind Sailing when you are overpowered and need to reduce power
Main
Put the second reef in the mainsail. That reduces area by half.
Depower the bottom of the sail: Put the outhaul or aft reef line to max tight to flatten the camber in the bottom section of the sail. A flat sail is a de-powered sail.
Tension the halyard or cunningham on tight to keep draft forward and more rounded for a wider groove (angle of attack range without stalling) and better "punch" through chop. Hitting chop in a light boat slows it, and the apparent wind shifts all over the place.
Tension the aft lower shrouds to limit the mast from bending too much when you put on the back stay and then put the backstay on hard to flatten the camber in the mid section of the mainsail.
Depower the top of the mainsail: Ease the vang until the top batten is outside of parallel and the leech is loose, and is "opening" to leeward. This decreases the angle of attack at the top of the sail.
When sailing upwind. Remember the two sails are acting as one wing (with a flap) when sailing upwind. Drop the traveler down to leeward all the way to reduce the camber of of the whole sailplan. (The chord of the "sailplan" goes from the front of the jib to the leech of the mainsail) Reducing camber reduces power.
Use a "fisherman's reef" -- ease the mainsail until you see a "bubble" or area of "backwind" at the luff of the mainsails (positive pressure area on the leeward side of the luff of the mainsai). This helps keep the boat flat (and fast).
Use the mainsheet with vang on: Tension the vang tight enough so that the boom does not go up when the mainsheet is eased. Play the mainsheet aggressively in the gusts to keep the boat flat. (aka Vang Sheeting)
Jib/Genoa
Reduce power: Tighten the backstay very tight to make the headstay as straight as possible and reduce the camber to reduce power (see above for the effect on the mainsail ).
Tighten halyard quite tight to keep draft rounded and forward for a wider steering groove.
Move the genoa lead car 1-2 holes back compared to the light air position to twist open the leech. at the top. This depowers the upper jib by reducing the angle of attack at the top.
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Head for a less windy part of the bay or head for home when the winds start to exceed 30 kntos. It's not fun any more even if you can do it.
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Upwind Steering tips.
Pick your spot for tacking. Especially with such a light weight boat, you'll need to wait for a flat spot or else the bow will get slapped back onto the old tack. Execute your tacks crisply, and spin the helm hard as soon as the bow is head to wind. Time your jibsheet release carefully , do not backwind the jib or you'll slow down too much.
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Downwind Steering Tips
Sailing downwind in high winds and waves is more complicated than sailing upwind in high winds and waves. It takes a bit of practice to sail when you are over powered, especially in waves.
First tip: Learn to do controlled gybes so you don't break your boom or rip out your vang. You can bring the mainsheet across like a dingy gybe, but at least trim it in first so it doesn't slam over hard. In high winds, you might dislocate your shoulder joint if you make a mistake on timing without trimming it in first.
Second tip: The easiest and safest way to sail down wind is to deep broad reach, so you minimize rolling as waves pass under you.
Third tip - Advanced: Once you get good at doing controlled gybes, learn how to surf down waves. The bestest, funnest way to handle waves in high winds is to let the boat surf down the face of the waves. Otherwise you will be fighting to boat as it rolls as the waves pass under it. In big waves, uncontrolled rolling ends up as a spectacular broach or a round up.
Waves go downind faster than non-planing boats do. Every time a wave catches up to a boat and passes it, the stern drops into the wave. As the stern drops into the trought of the passing wave, the boat will want to roll to windward.
So what do you do? At the top of the wave, build up speed by heading up to reach along the crest of the wave. As the wave passes under the stern, the boat will heel to windward, and will wan to turn to leeward (which is down the face of the wave) Since the boat is already heeling, you won't have to move the rudder much to inititate a turn straight down the face of the wave. Ride the wave as long as you can, until the boat slows down and the folowing wave catches you. When the boat slows down, head up to a higher angle again and reach along the face of the following wave until you are speeding along the crest of the wave.
When the next wave passes under you, the stern will drop into the next trough, the boat will start to roll to windward, and it's time to let the boat steer itself down the face of the wave again.
If you're not already overpowered, and can profitably harness more wind power, you may want to ease the mainsail as you "run" down the face of the wave, and trim in a bit as you head up to a reach on the face of the next wave.
But in really heavy wind, all you really care about is controlling roll and not fighting it. The wave is going to pass you sooner or later, so use the roll to advantage. You can't fight it, so use it.
It's easier to let the boat surf on waves than to fight it. But it does take a bit of practice.
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With some practice you can learn how to respond to use waves to your advantage, rather than fight them.
Judy B
Hyde Sails Direct
Sailing San Francisco Bay in trailerable 19 or 23 foot boats.
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Winds 15-20 kts,seas 1 -2 feet...So I took some cues from this thread yesterday, it was a totally different experience. I kept main up and added the jib, I controlled heel by spilling wind as necessary on the main, keeping pointed higher into the wind, and keeping the sails tightened up to reduce camber.
With balanced sails the boat didn't flop up and slap the water as much as she punched through the chop, splashing the kids to their extreme delight. We held about 4.5 - 4.9 kts upwind (close reach?), 5.8 on the broad reach. Guys ! I was sailing! In fact CINCHOUSE demanded that we had to go home or I don't think I would have stopped sailing...ever. I even, on the way home, got to work on jybing and what is it called when the jib is on one side and the main is on the other side going down wind? ....I know nothing...
With balanced sails the boat didn't flop up and slap the water as much as she punched through the chop, splashing the kids to their extreme delight. We held about 4.5 - 4.9 kts upwind (close reach?), 5.8 on the broad reach. Guys ! I was sailing! In fact CINCHOUSE demanded that we had to go home or I don't think I would have stopped sailing...ever. I even, on the way home, got to work on jybing and what is it called when the jib is on one side and the main is on the other side going down wind? ....I know nothing...
JudyB: Very Nice post. Sums it up very nicely.
spartacus99: Awesome ! Congratulations.
As for "knowing nothing"... You know more now, than many people who have had sailboats for years. One of the many reasons I love sailing, is that I'm always learning something new.
spartacus99: Awesome ! Congratulations.
As for "knowing nothing"... You know more now, than many people who have had sailboats for years. One of the many reasons I love sailing, is that I'm always learning something new.