How many composite rudder failures?
- Thread starter Picaro
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How did you get home? Tow?
I bent a rudder on a tree trunk 6 months back... but I have 2.
Even in a mere 20 knots, I'm betting very few would succeed in building anything robust from a table top.
Never underestimate the desperate.
I'm also trimming sails like nobody's business!
How much did it cost ya? I see a Hunter 33 on the market advertised with a new rudder and stainless post. I betcha this wasn't an upgrade with thoughts of being on the safe side...it was probably a situation like yours. This is becoming more common than you think with hunters composite post. Think of it like this, the boats that are losing the rudders are getting to be about 10-15 years old. If you're not the original owner, I can bet the Hunter was sailed hard as hell, heeling like a drunk in heavy seas. This boat heels easily and looks like fun doing it. This alone would put a lot of flex and stress on the composite post without showing any signs of wear. As stated above, how about if the Hunter had soft grounding. This may bend a stainless post but composite would flex and spring right back to its original form, looking fine but weakened without any signs. Buying any used sailboat has its costly unknowns...Hunter just has a few more added on that list....and this Rudder issue is ridiculous. Another thing about Hunter is the Cored Hull above the water line...why? stiffer hull? I don't think so. I see it as a ticking time bomb with all those ports in the hull. Flex and a few years will most definitely compromise the hulls "balsa core" through bad seals on the port to hull seams. Bad enough dealing with cored decks, Hunter once again added more worries for the poor suckers that become the 2nd, 3rd + owners of the vessel. I think Catalina and Hunter are marketing their boats to the "New Boat" buyers without really thinking much about long term...except Catalinas rigging and hardware.... looks like they went the extra mile there 
WKW
WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE BUT OVERALL, HUNTER HAS A GOOD NAME AND MANY WILL DISAGREE WITH YOU.
A friend of mine bought the very first Hunter. Like every beginning mfg., Hunter made mistakes snd corrected them. They aligned themselves with quality engineers, technology, suppliers etc...
The warranty dept. was considered the best. They were the first to introduce new innovations now seen as standard on other boats. Experimental boats were built and sailed solo around the world at times by the owner of Hunter, Warren Luhrs, taking that experience using it in designs. I could go on. FYI I was a dealer and called warren my friend who was highly experienced and dedicated to sailing and respected amongst his peers
In addition there is no way to tell what an older boat has gone thru as there is no boatfax like there is with cars why a survey is recommended. Funny thing in my years as is dealer, three rudders were replaced. One was Hunter which was the easiest to replace without any hassle as I was a multi line dealer
WE CAN AGREE TO DISAGREE BUT OVERALL, HUNTER HAS A GOOD NAME AND MANY WILL DISAGREE WITH YOU.
A friend of mine bought the very first Hunter. Like every beginning mfg., Hunter made mistakes snd corrected them. They aligned themselves with quality engineers, technology, suppliers etc...
The warranty dept. was considered the best. They were the first to introduce new innovations now seen as standard on other boats. Experimental boats were built and sailed solo around the world at times by the owner of Hunter, Warren Luhrs, taking that experience using it in designs. I could go on. FYI I was a dealer and called warren my friend who was highly experienced and dedicated to sailing and respected amongst his peers
In addition there is no way to tell what an older boat has gone thru as there is no boatfax like there is with cars why a survey is recommended. Funny thing in my years as is dealer, three rudders were replaced. One was Hunter which was the easiest to replace without any hassle as I was a multi line dealer
My H430 was amazingly well designed. Albeit hard to access critical spots, but still accessible.
When I needed to find, change, or repair, there was a "planned" access spot or an understanding of what made a repair easier.
Getting a Class A rating for heavy seas is not an easy design task.
______
Rudder Design...
Shaft strength versus Forces applied.
At no time would you want your rudder shaft to...
To prevent any applied forces from bending a shaft beyond its "yield point" you need rudder shaft...
Bearings.
Anytime you have your boat on the hard [or a strong diver] , it is a simple test is see if your rudder shaft has lateral movements inside those bearings.
As far as Stress Corrosion Cracking on a SS shaft, that is basically a bogus fear, since Hunter designed its tube to hydraulically float with the boats fore and aft movements, therefore not stagnant. It takes high salinity plus high temperatures to have SCC.
Additionally the SS is not a galvanic corrosion path either. I have checked it with my AgCl reference probe.
My rudder is a great design.
Jim...
When I needed to find, change, or repair, there was a "planned" access spot or an understanding of what made a repair easier.
Getting a Class A rating for heavy seas is not an easy design task.
______
Rudder Design...
Shaft strength versus Forces applied.
At no time would you want your rudder shaft to...
The rudder shaft is not a mast. It is short and stiff and should have little so called "bend".
To prevent any applied forces from bending a shaft beyond its "yield point" you need rudder shaft...
Bearings.
Anytime you have your boat on the hard [or a strong diver] , it is a simple test is see if your rudder shaft has lateral movements inside those bearings.
As far as Stress Corrosion Cracking on a SS shaft, that is basically a bogus fear, since Hunter designed its tube to hydraulically float with the boats fore and aft movements, therefore not stagnant. It takes high salinity plus high temperatures to have SCC.
Additionally the SS is not a galvanic corrosion path either. I have checked it with my AgCl reference probe.
My rudder is a great design.
Jim...
Fact is, the original post is about a Hunter with a "composite rudder post shearing off". Yes, the Hunter looks great and has lots of cool features. Honestly, I love the look of that arch( 2005'ish Hunter 33) and it being set up for single handing as my wife freaks out every time I need to take a piss down below...maybe she'll feel better with this set up. Bad stuff again... a Google search will bring up people with Hunters and their composite rudder post shearing off. They're not haters bashing Hunter...They're owners talking about how the experience was scary, sucked and how expensive it was to correct. Was it in this forum, a brand new Hunter 33 with original owner.. His Keel was off center 2 inches. He wanted it fixed and Hunter said "No, there's a 4 inch allowance for off center keels as it does not affect sailing performance" and they installed/set them by eye!!!!!....that doesn't sound like a response anyone would like after spending big bucks. Other's complained of the off center keel and the frustration keeping on course motoring and auto pilot. These are owner facts and complaints...that's it....and as these Hunters reach the 15 year mark, we're hearing more about this "composite rudder failure"
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Like I said to each his own singling out Hunter when you don’t even own one plus all manufacturers had issues. Your bio shows an Oday 22 who ceased production around 1989 but some showed up as 1990 models if I recall correctly which were left overs. Even O’Day had some issues too. May I ask do you actually own a larger boat now and if so what is it.
When you use a web search, add to it the search the reason why the shaft sheared. You might find an answer.
I suggest, very strongly, from a pure engineering view, it is lack of rudder shaft Bearings maintenance.
Web search, shear forces for shaft materials and their yield force values.
Jim...
Crazy Dave, Yes you're right but there's always a story....I owned an O'day 22 and sailed that little boat endlessly. I made it pretty and sold it for 3x what I paid and invested. I moved up to an O'day 272 and absolutely loved that boat. It had a bolt on shoal draft wing keel and those bolts and backing plates looked pristine compared to what I've seen on newer production boats. Sailed the living hell out of it, made it pretty and sold that for 7x what I paid and invested....except this was a big mistake. I lost two sailing seasons while looking at boats. I thought it would be an easy move up to an O'day 322 and do the typical sail and fix while being brand loyal. In the end I really didn't like the O'day 322 so passed on it. I decided to go newer and more modern.Top on the list for layout and design....Catalina 320, Beneteau 321, Beneteau 331. I feel the Hunter 33 is really attractive and that open cabin layout is great. I guess you can argue that I haven't owned a "larger sailboat" or "haven't owned a Hunter" but in the end it's not my Hunter experiences being posted in forums. It's the owners in various stages, honeymoon 1st buyers to second owners talking about these issues... If I'm going to sink in $60,000 USD into a used boat, I'm going to research it like a mad scientist and talk about it like an asswaffle. There's a lot to like about the Hunter but it didn't make my list due to the owner complaints and issues. In the end, I may go and poke around one. Look at the keel, shake the rudder, peek in the bilge and engine. If I was to consider a Hunter 33... my personal views come into play.... I may miss sailing downwind and would be worried about a poorly sealed port or a thru-hull compromising the cored hull (above water line). I wonder if those chainplates mounted to the hull are isolated from the hull core material????
Bronze:
Back around 1990 we were hauled out in Seattle doing bottom paint next to a Columbia 50 owned by a newly retired architect who was doing finishing touches on it before splashing and heading down to Mexico. In the process of putting zincs on the shaft the bronze strut broke right at the gelcoat line. The flat base of the strut was covered (faired?) to create a smooth bottom and failure was apparently a result of electrolysis. Point is, even bronze needs to be maintained and isn’t a cure-all.
Another bronze event: I crewed on a co-workers C&C 36 skippered by a Mechanical Engineer. Won his division and later became head of PHRF Northwest. His foredeck guy married his (the skipper’s) daughter and they used the boat for a honeymoon. While up in the San Juans the boat almost sunk because the engine bronze thru hull valve broke but fortunately there was a wood plug there. I flew him up to Friday Harbor where we changed out the thru hull with the boat in the water. Bottom line: bronze needs maintenance and inspections.
These are a couple reasons why I like Marlon valves. I’m not good at metallurgy and don’t want to trust bronze below the waterline. Grounding wires aren’t a guarantee against problems so aren’t perfect, either. Stainless rudder shafts have an issue because there can be crevice corrosion right at the fiberglass/SS interface. This is obviously why Hunter went with a GRP rudder shaft.
The H33 (by Hunter Florida) has nice interior wood work, especially as opposed to a lot of fiberglass, and otherwise looks like a very nice boat. If the rudder post was the main issue, what one might consider is talking to Foss if that is who made the original one, mention your concern, and ask them about a beefier wall thickness section, or possibly some other solution (SS, carbon fiber, ?). The rudder concern seems to be straightforward. With regard to the chainplates, talk to some experienced surveyors and get their take.
Downwind sailing: Suggest adding an asymmetrical. On our H35 we fly a symmetrical without a douser and I’ve flown it solo, too, With appropriate preparation one should be able to fly an asymmetrical on a 33 without dousing accessories and save money. Might want to plan for a short sprit to get the tack out a bit more forward because the forestay is pretty close to the bow pulpit. The 33 does look like it would be nice to move up to.
Back around 1990 we were hauled out in Seattle doing bottom paint next to a Columbia 50 owned by a newly retired architect who was doing finishing touches on it before splashing and heading down to Mexico. In the process of putting zincs on the shaft the bronze strut broke right at the gelcoat line. The flat base of the strut was covered (faired?) to create a smooth bottom and failure was apparently a result of electrolysis. Point is, even bronze needs to be maintained and isn’t a cure-all.
Another bronze event: I crewed on a co-workers C&C 36 skippered by a Mechanical Engineer. Won his division and later became head of PHRF Northwest. His foredeck guy married his (the skipper’s) daughter and they used the boat for a honeymoon. While up in the San Juans the boat almost sunk because the engine bronze thru hull valve broke but fortunately there was a wood plug there. I flew him up to Friday Harbor where we changed out the thru hull with the boat in the water. Bottom line: bronze needs maintenance and inspections.
These are a couple reasons why I like Marlon valves. I’m not good at metallurgy and don’t want to trust bronze below the waterline. Grounding wires aren’t a guarantee against problems so aren’t perfect, either. Stainless rudder shafts have an issue because there can be crevice corrosion right at the fiberglass/SS interface. This is obviously why Hunter went with a GRP rudder shaft.
The H33 (by Hunter Florida) has nice interior wood work, especially as opposed to a lot of fiberglass, and otherwise looks like a very nice boat. If the rudder post was the main issue, what one might consider is talking to Foss if that is who made the original one, mention your concern, and ask them about a beefier wall thickness section, or possibly some other solution (SS, carbon fiber, ?). The rudder concern seems to be straightforward. With regard to the chainplates, talk to some experienced surveyors and get their take.
Downwind sailing: Suggest adding an asymmetrical. On our H35 we fly a symmetrical without a douser and I’ve flown it solo, too, With appropriate preparation one should be able to fly an asymmetrical on a 33 without dousing accessories and save money. Might want to plan for a short sprit to get the tack out a bit more forward because the forestay is pretty close to the bow pulpit. The 33 does look like it would be nice to move up to.
I’m now in the process of buying a 1992 375 legend composite rudderpost sailboat. I understand the hazards of boating just as well as the hazards of getting out of bed. I have lost steering on a sailboat and it’s no fun. Sailing is an adventure The ride continues, one can sail a boat using the sails alone. Practice it as much as backing into a slip.
Ever have a rudder post bearing fail and the cable slips off the steering quadrant? Been there, done that. Composite rudderposts are sturdy and maybe even better than stainless. What causes failure of a composite rudderpost is hitting something hard. It will break off, shear off actually. Is it stopping me from buying this great vessel? Not hardly. Life is for the living and I’ll be here and enjoying every minute I can. That’s why they have insurance.... to cover one’s investment. Live life, it’s truly an adventure.
Ever have a rudder post bearing fail and the cable slips off the steering quadrant? Been there, done that. Composite rudderposts are sturdy and maybe even better than stainless. What causes failure of a composite rudderpost is hitting something hard. It will break off, shear off actually. Is it stopping me from buying this great vessel? Not hardly. Life is for the living and I’ll be here and enjoying every minute I can. That’s why they have insurance.... to cover one’s investment. Live life, it’s truly an adventure.