How many composite rudder failures?

Jerry Clark H356 SV Persi · Jun 21, 2014

You have a 14 year old boat. Why would you think Hunter should be responsible?

spraygun · Jun 21, 2014

This should make all the Hunter bashers thrilled to hear.

seadaddler · Jun 21, 2014

Many

I have seen many Hunters old and new and guess what they all
had the same rudder still on,I think if it was a design problem
we would here about it more.
Yes every now and than we do here about a sailboat losing a
rudder but hard to say for sure what went wrong.
Nick

Benny17441 · Jun 22, 2014

We don't hear of any significant number of Hunter rudder failures and some of the boats do get put through their paces so I doubt there is a problem with the design. Perhaps your unit had a materials defect or could have been weakened by a prior collision with an obstruction. The conditions that you indicate are quite mild to have been the sole cause for the failure.

Steve Dion · Jun 22, 2014

I remember a rash of these composite shafts failing a few years back. It is interesting that it took 14 years to show up.

There have been some conventional rudders that have failed due to internal corrosion too.

uncledom · Jun 23, 2014

Picaro said:
We just lost our rudder on a 2002 H326. Winds in the mid twenties, 4-6 seas, 300 ft depth, San Juan de Fuca. This should be well within the advertised boat limitations. 100% positive it simply failed from fatigue. Personally I was shocked to find the rudder post was some kind of GRP product. Sheared off right at the hull. How many others have experienced this type of failure? Foss has been very helpful and is providing a real rudder. At considerable expense to us. Is this a design defect? Should I pursue Hunter for reimbursement?

Good luck suing Hunter, they don't exist any more. Marlow bought them out and I'm pretty sure that Marlow Hunter is not responsible for any thing made before the purchase. Be happy you and the boat made it.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jun 23, 2014

When a boat is built, there is warranty giving specific time limits which spell out the warranty period. After that, repairs are left up to the owner. Further, you would have to prove your case which would be costly and given the time frame of 14 years, you are wasting your time plus you cannot prove how or why the rudder failed. Finally, Hunter no longer exists as it was sold and now operates as Marlow Hunter.

I have known of Hunter going the long mile to insure quality of their boats. I know of one rudder that was broken off due to debri in the middle of the Pacific. The owner had a sat phone and the head of warranty and the engineers walked him thru to make a temp. steering mechanism. When he came into port on an island two days later, there sat a new rudder. I know of a lot more how far Hunter went. Yes I was a former dealer but knew what they did for their customers and then there were a few who said no to. Here is one case.

Without specfics as to place, specific size of boat, name and so on, I sold a new 40 foot plus boat and made over 15 warranty visists out of state for such things holding tank not working but found it was full without being pumped out, fishing tackle in the sails/rigging, tv controller fouled up by a child, boat dirty and so on. Then all of a sudden claims of poor workmanship to include radar dome falling off at sea, failure of boom vang blocks and one attachment on boom coming off, ribs cracked and other items too. Repairs were made but the radar dome was the final issue as the owner said it was not installed incorrectly to include arguing with the mfg. as to fastners supplied with that platform. As a former investigator, I asked the question, did you ever run aground and the response was heck no for being polite. I told Mr. Owner I would pay for a haul out if nothing was seen.

Well the day of reckoning. The keel was imbedded with coral, concrete and steel rebarb, etc. plus the back of the keel was separated from the boat. I would say 1/4 to 1/3 of the rudder was missing. I looked at the owner and asked him if he ever ran aground and this time he said nothing. In fact a surveyor that accompanied the owner was bad mouthing the construction and I asked him what school of kindergarten did he get his degree from. Even though the warranty period was in affect, I told the owner due to the damages and degree of mishandling or lack of being a responsible owner/captain, I told him warranty was voided and Hunter backed me up.

Otherwise Hunter and my dealership went the extra mile.

robertsapp · Jun 23, 2014

In this engineer's opinion

The "conventional" way to build a rudder, using a stainless steel shaft and welded internal web embedded in a foam and fiberglass shell, is a ticking time bomb. It is a 100% certainty that it will fail eventually due to the impossibility of maintaining a water tight bond at the shaft/blade interface. Once water gets into the rudder, the internal web WILL eventually fail due to crevice corrosion caused by exposure to stagnant, oxygen depleted water.

The all-composite structure of the rudders Hunter used do not exhibit this weakness. Unless you get one that has a significant manufacturer's defect, they should last at least as long as the hull. Their greatest problem appears to be that they don't exhibit signs of imminent failure, they just fail. By that, I mean if you back your boat hard into something and you have a stainless steel rudder stock, you can usually tell you've overstressed the rudder because it will be bent at an odd angle and you know you need to replace it. If you do the same to a composite rudder, you may severely overstress and weaken it, but to a casual observer it will look just fine. It won't bend. But it may have had it's strength reduced 90%, and it could just fall off the next time it's heavily loaded.

So, are you absolutely positively 100% sure that at no time in the boats life the rudder ever took a severe enough hit to overstress it? Because a survey or visual inspection won't tell you.

Crazy Dave Condon · Jun 24, 2014

First, your best friend is that local dealer who is willing to go the extra yard in your description. It sounds like he is one in a million who would go the extreme to help you out. I believe I know whom you may be talking about and would go to that person for future service. I knew of good and bad dealers and the best thing to find out is one who is willing to help you out like that. I am glad for you.

Over the years, manufacturers will try new things. I concur I would want a stainless steel shaft style rudder is better than a composite shaft but during my time as a dealer, I did not have any issues with those boats.

So often people will jump to the point and say things without thinking. As a former ins. investigator and pilot, I chirped in to point out the realities when some do not realize those realities. Your original post simply asked questions which is the appropriate way and it is good to see that direction but you and I will never know the history of that rudder with the composite shaft what it went thru before you purchased it. I was trying to advise what you can and would not be able to do.

So often I heard as one said the Hunter bashers over the water ballast trailerable sailboats which I have defended from the get go and when a problem was pointed out, Hunter took corrective action. I was a dealer for many and can tell you Hunter in many cases went the extra mile when others would not but also stood behind the dealer when the customer abused the boat like the one I described in my earlier post.

I simply try to explain from knowledge and experience, not supposition.

rardiH36 · Jun 24, 2014

Great thread since the responses address what I have often wondered about and even "Google'd/Bing'd" on occasion ever since the purchase of my 1980 Hunter (Cherubini) 36.

I like Steve Dion's response (#7) because still in the nav desk on my boat was a log book (three PO's prior!) documenting a mid 1990's voyage from SF Bay to Mexico and back. During the trip south, off Mexico, the rudder failed. Tow-in from sea was required. Then the PO and his/her opposite sex crew mate had to endure quite a few weeks of "torturous" time in Ensenada drinking tequila and eating seafood while waiting for parts and the repair.

Anyway, this history is probably why my boat's 1980 steering system got a "A1+" rating by my purchase surveyor in 2007. From the log, it appears that the SS tangs inside the rudder crevice corroded to the point of failure.

Aside from splitting a rudder apart at the next haul-out to inspect, or just buying a new rudder if its been on the boat for more than "x" years, is there any other way than to wait until a failure to know if a rudder is safe?

p.s. As a comment about Hunter construction, I have been everywhere on my boat. I can't attest for every change/repair that PO's have done. But my impression is that everything still is virtually all OEM. And it all still appears sound. Done well. The most obvious "upgrade" I have found is replacement of all the thru-hull valves with Marlon. The most obvious construction "defect" I have noted is the fastening of SS fittings directly against anodized aluminum on the toe-rail and mast/boom. From what I gather, it was originally expected that the anodized surface was sufficient to prevent the galvanic corrosion interaction. But Hunter wasn't the only manufacturer that did this ....

Paul Cossman · Jun 25, 2014

checking a SS rudder shaft

rardiH36 said:
Aside from splitting a rudder apart at the next haul-out to inspect, or just buying a new rudder if its been on the boat for more than "x" years, is there any other way than to wait until a failure to know if a rudder is safe?

....

If your rudder has a SS shaft, the answer is yes. You can drop the rudder and have a marine engineer "freeze" the rudder shaft using a dye compound to look for inchoate cracks or any other defect that has appeared. We did exactly that to our 1991 (P42) rudder when we replaced the lower bearing.

As another aside, I chipped off about a 1" square piece of fiberglass from the leading corner of the rudder one time. I contacted Foss about the repair, and Foss was of the opinion that since it is closed cell foam, the water intrusion that may have resulted would have been limited to that area. In years since, to ensure that is the case, I occasionally drill a small hole into that spot to see if there is any weeping. So far, so good.

Dubai · Aug 27, 2014

I also suffered loss of the rudder on my 326 in similar sailing conditions. Foss supplied replacement with SS shaft. Fitment went pretty straightforward and boat handles much better now. Previously I was always working the helm to hold a straight course. Now under the same conditions she tracks straight. I suspect that the rudder had previously hit an obstruction with previous owner.

Bronxite · Apr 18, 2016

I as well am in need of redduer work on my hunter... you all are referring to " Foss about the repair", Please identify who is Foss, and any contact information. Thanks.

justsomeguy · Apr 18, 2016

Foss Foam Products.

http://newrudders.com

Bronxite · Apr 18, 2016

Thanks a bunch.

Skipper · Apr 18, 2016

Quality of original build is always a plus on older boats. A solid bronze post on a huge skeg-hung rudder on our Bristol makes for peace of mind. I know of not a single rudder failure, or keel or hull failure, on any Bristol in history.
However, I think Hunter boat problems surface more because there are more Hunter boats.
When you do the repair, consider a reinforced upgrade. A few strategic upgrades on Hunters and Catalinas can make them quite seaworthy.