How Far Do You Heel....?

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Oct 3, 2007
70
MacGregor 26D Salem Harbor
how to go faster?

Heeling changes the shape of the hull in the water and also changes the area of sail directly exposed to the wind. More heeling doesn't necessarily mean more speed.
 

gpdno

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May 16, 2011
144
Watkins 27 Venice
parttimesailor said:
Heeling changes the shape of the hull in the water and also changes the area of sail directly exposed to the wind. More heeling doesn't necessarily mean more speed.
Which is why when racing you have rail meat. Folks sitting on the rail to add a counterforce to the heal of the boat.
Personally, the family gets upset if our boat heals more then about 15 degrees. I have tried to bury the rail but the boat rounds up before I get there (at about 25 degrees).
 
Oct 10, 2009
1,031
Catalina 27 3657 Lake Monroe
12 degrees seems to be the happiest angle for my boat, both in terms of speed and family comfort. I second the advice to finding how the boat reacts to excessive heeling. Our boat tells us what she is going to do, lots of gurgling and sounds of water not passing around the rudder smoothly as I hold off the weather helm.
 
Jan 7, 2011
5,400
Oday 322 East Chicago, IN
My H280, with deep keel, sails pretty well up to 40 degrees heel. My wife, on the other hand does not sail at anything over about 10 degrees. Her knuckles are white, and she keeps yelling "Make it stop doing that!". So, when the winds are up, or Lake Michigan waves are up, my 2 boys and I go out and have a challenging sail.

This video was taken on a choppy, windy day ... 30-40 degree of heel, and we hit 6.4 knots...with reeled main and furled jib...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yskCDAQ1P3w&sns=em

This one was on a much flatter day, but good wind and 20-35 degrees of heel at times....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQqPgnx9rPY&sns=em

The more I sail, especially in challenging conditions, the more confidence I get in my boat ( and my abilities)....

Greg
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,370
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Many years ago I learned some good lessons from experience sailors. The more you heel, the more wetted surface and more friction. In additon most will due to nature will try to hold the wheel or tiller to keep on course and that acts as a brake slowing down. Use of sail control is the best answer as I have seen boats sunk due to much sail in alot of wind heeling way over.

I have taken smaller boats in unoffical races and beat some of the best with what many say 12-14 degree max heel using sail control techniques without too much strrss on the rudder. Worked evertime.

dave condon
 
Jan 13, 2009
393
J Boat 92 78 Sandusky
On my 29 footer these are the polars for some wind speeds. Note the optimum heel angle depends on windspeed and wind angle. Note some of the 20 degree plus heel angles on some of the reaching angles.
 

Attachments

Jan 26, 2008
50
Hunter 31- Deale
Degrees of Heel

I try not to heel too much but sometimes its hard not to. I try and flatten the sails (outhall, backstay, travelers etc) to reduce power, if that doesn't work I add a reef.

All my friends are non sailors so for new crew I preemptively tell them that keel boats heel over but also can't capsize. I exaggerate a little and they usually get a nice surprise when we get sailing.

I think its important for the skipper is to just keep cool, if only in appearance. When we get a sudden gust I usually just talk though exactly what's happening and what's going to happen.
I have a Hunter 310 - seems to do best 12-15 degrees. Several years ago a friend loved to have the boat heel - gunnels to the water. I told him - note the speed (on GPS) degrees of heel and how much rudder (wheel displaced off centerline) I took the helm - reefed boat - heel reduced to 12-15 degrees, wheel/rudder angle reduced & speed was the same or a touch faster. I explained to him the high rudder angles is a major source of drag and sometimes "less sail is more speed" more comfortable, and less stress on your sails and rigging.

It varies from boat to boat (often hull design). A friend has a Hinkley Pilot 35 - it sails best with higher heel angle (as he heels the boat waterline length increases and he can reach max hull speed.

You need to experiment with your boat. The speed on GPS (reads in tenths) is an excellent aid.

Coast Awhile
 
Feb 29, 2012
37
Hunter 376 Elvina Bay,NSW, Australia
Share the same experience like all of you, heeling can cause anxiety at first , then I explain in a calm way that she won't capsize or anything like that , she's got a very heavy keel and with the wind blowing over the flattened sail she will come upright, once they have experienced all of it, we have some very happy sailors on board, and they love it, it is the unknown that scares the living daylight out of them I suppose.

But slowly breaking in the novice sailors is the way to go, don't scare them off, otherwise you will remain in the Marina, I remain responsible for all of us and won't take her ( My H376 'Current Affair' , my only and last affair according my wife LOL) out when the weather forecast is lousy to say the least.
 

Nodak7

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Sep 28, 2008
1,256
Hunter 41DS Punta Gorda, FL
Had to laugh Squid! The first boat we had (a Mac) and the first time we set sail the boat heeled over to about 10 degrees! The Admiral yells "holy sh*t!" I explained to her that this is pretty normal and not to get alarmed. By the end of the day she was OK and we still laugh about her first experience. We now happily run down the lake at 30 and sometimes more but it makes a mess of the interior of the boat. Most of the time we are 10-15 degrees. Our lake is very gusty so it is difficult to "set and forget" the trim. If we get hit with a gust she will heel but I try to control her with the traveler. We have "buried the rail" once or twice (on purpose and not) but it is not a comfortable sail so I avoid it. I try to be very cautious with newbies on board because they are very nervous and I don't want them jumping overboard. If we get hit with a big gust I just stand at the helm and smile :D! They just think it is normal. We once took a couple of friends out and they asked the question about what a bad heel was and we told them 40 degrees. We promptly rounded a point and got hit with a big gust! Guess what.... we hit 40 degrees and I think if I had not been at the helm smiling they would have considered jumping overboard! Needless to say we reefed and had a great day sail! :D Have fun!
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Squidd,

I'm pretty late in this thread, but in years of trial & error maybe this will add some insight.

1. sailing is nothing more than flying sideways. The same laws of physics apply.

2. knowing this, the secret is to balance the boat for the conditions. Some heel is neat, but extreme heel or hard rounding up tendencies are not.

3. ALWAYS contour your sail for the folks you take out. When I take my elderly mom out, she says "Don't make the wind too hard, and don't make the waves too big." I just say OK mom.

With practice & sailhandling, you will find that most times you can acheive comfortable sailing.

I have suggested a sail trim book for friends which is easy reading & has alot of graphical pictures, and if you're like me, I'm a visual guy. The title is called "RACING" but don't let that fool you. It's the Time Life Library of Boating.

CR
 

Squidd

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Sep 26, 2011
890
AMF Alcort Paceship PY26 Washburn Wi. Apostle Islands
Squidd,


3. ALWAYS contour your sail for the folks you take out. When I take my elderly mom out, she says "Don't make the wind too hard, and don't make the waves too big." I just say OK mom.

With practice & sailhandling, you will find that most times you can acheive comfortable sailing.

CR
That's exactly what the wife wants me to do...only sail in smooth water...which is kinda counter intuitive to going out in the wind...

Thanks for the book suggestion, I do have lots to learn on sail trim and setup...

As much as I thought it would be the "same"...this boat is going to take quite a bit different technique than sailing my Cat on smaller lakes...
 
Jan 6, 2010
1,520
Twist,

I tell my non-sailing friends when heeling that, "It's not the boat that's leaning, it's the water that's on an angle. So you have not to worry......... until you see me looking worried."

CR
 

chp

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Sep 13, 2010
431
Hunter 280 hamilton
Take the advice of BobM. Let the wife have the helm and teach her if the heel is too much just head up into the wind until the boat sits upright again. My wife was the same as most. I hired an instructor to take her out on our boat to teach her how to handle the boat. Made a huge difference. Also lots of sail trim controls make a big difference. The Mac is a tender boat and does not come with any sail control other than the basics. I added roller furler, boom vang, traveller, 4 to 1 outhaul and reefing system. I routinely go out in 15-20 knt winds and can keep the boat at 20*. Seems to be a happy place for this boat.
 

Squidd

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Sep 26, 2011
890
AMF Alcort Paceship PY26 Washburn Wi. Apostle Islands
Cool.. On the Paceship web site they tell me I can do 50* before she "rounds up"... I just believe them no need to test that theory...

I admit I was one of the "new guys" on this boat first time under sail, (I motored it when I picked it up last fall) so yes I tried...but don't know how convincing I was with the "everything is fine/under control dear" speach...

Knowing the "range" gives me a lot more confidence in portraying where were at...
 
Oct 26, 2008
6,222
Catalina 320 Barnegat, NJ
You will soon learn your boat's behavior, don't worry!

The polars that HeyJude posted tell the most accurate story with regard to heeling and speed, I believe. You're hull shape may influence how tender your boat feels as well. I recall that your boat is fairly beamy for a 26 foot boat as mine is.

However, my boat is fairly narrow at the waterline because the topsides continue to flair out significantly above the waterline. As a result of the design, the boat initially heels relatively easily, but it also stiffens as the degree of healing increases. From 0 to 15 she feels relatively tender, but it stiffens past 15 so that going to 25 is not intimidating. If you experience the same thing, use this expanation to your advantage!
Like I said earlier, at 30, my rail isn't near the water, and that's where weather helm influences my decision to reef (actually 25 is because I don't want to fight weather helm at 30), even if I'm pushing the boat. Sailing at 15 (upwind) is for gentlemen and ladies who don't want to spill their drink! :D Actually, gentlemen don't even sail to weather! There's nothing better than sailing downwind, though, at high speed and a flat boat, with the wind and waves aft!

My rudder is a spade rudder underneath the transom and it is as deep as the keel, so there is still a significant amount of rudder in the water when weather helm is getting tough to deal with. Of course sail trim will impact how much heel you can tolerate before weather helm takes over, but I would guess that with your rudder off the back of the transom, you will experience enough weather helm to influence your ability to hold the boat on course well short of 50.

In my opinion, having your wife take the helm while you trim sails is the best way to get her used to the boats motion. Here's the tiny little secret that will help you out. While your wife thinks she has control of heeling because she has the helm, you will actually have more control by adjusting the angle of attack with the sails in the puffs (but you better learn how to read the wind on the water). I'll admit that this may work better as long as you are experienced with sail trimming (or relatively experienced!)

Everybody has a different way of dealing with nervous wives/drivers, but, I don't like advocating steering the boat into the wind to adjust for wind gusts because then the boat is heeling over and settling down like a yo-yo, and you lose momentum, which is also unsettling. It's fine if you are at the helm and you are feathering in and out to adjust with just the right touch, but your wife will tend to over-compensate at first, which just leads to more difficulties. On Lake Superior, you will also be dealing with waves, and instructing her to turn up into the waves may create an unsettling motion as well.

My preference is to encourage a new helmsmen to steer a steady course. When you actively feather the sails, you are controlling the healing, while the motion of the boat on a steady course is much easier, which in turn, gives your wife much more confidence. Soon, she won't be minding when the boat is easing up to 25 and back down to 15 because she will believe she is in control, which she is to some extent. In my view, if you encourage her to steer into the wind every time she gets uneasy, you will soon be following up with instructions (sometimes with yelling and impatience :cry:) to get the boat moving again. This leads to frustration all the way around. In my opinion, turning into the wind to slow down and right the boat is a last resort when a gust is particularly overpowering. In this case, you still want it to be a controlled maneuver, not abrupt. When necessary, you should be able to say (calmly), "turn into the wind a bit, Honey". This will give her a sense of teamwork when she realizes that you are also adjusting the sails as necessary in a calm fashion.

It's also harder to get a new sailor used to trimming the sails in these circumstances than it is to get them used to steering the boat. That's why I advocate that you let her gain confidence at the helm as early as possible and gradually move on to sail trim later.

Those are just my thoughts, and I know everybody is different, but it has worked for me.
 
Feb 29, 2012
37
Hunter 376 Elvina Bay,NSW, Australia
Love your story, keep on smiling and Good Winds and favourable seas!
Rob
 
Feb 29, 2012
37
Hunter 376 Elvina Bay,NSW, Australia
Had to laugh Squid! The first boat we had (a Mac) and the first time we set sail the boat heeled over to about 10 degrees! The Admiral yells "holy sh*t!" I explained to her that this is pretty normal and not to get alarmed. By the end of the day she was OK and we still laugh about her first experience. We now happily run down the lake at 30 and sometimes more but it makes a mess of the interior of the boat. Most of the time we are 10-15 degrees. Our lake is very gusty so it is difficult to "set and forget" the trim. If we get hit with a gust she will heel but I try to control her with the traveler. We have "buried the rail" once or twice (on purpose and not) but it is not a comfortable sail so I avoid it. I try to be very cautious with newbies on board because they are very nervous and I don't want them jumping overboard. If we get hit with a big gust I just stand at the helm and smile :D! They just think it is normal. We once took a couple of friends out and they asked the question about what a bad heel was and we told them 40 degrees. We promptly rounded a point and got hit with a big gust! Guess what.... we hit 40 degrees and I think if I had not been at the helm smiling they would have considered jumping overboard! Needless to say we reefed and had a great day sail! :D Have fun!
Love your story, and isn't it true, when I took my 'Admiral' out the 1st time she had eyes like saucers! now she's happy with all the heeling:)
 
Nov 23, 2011
2,023
MacGregor 26D London Ontario Canada
Last race my wife was telling our 4 year old daughter to sit down in the cabin because we were keeling 10-15*. I said "Squeaky, go to ware you were last race." She stood on the top step coming out of the cockpit. I told mom she could go in if she wanted. She didn't. Squeaks just played around like we weren't moving.
 
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