How does one tell the difference...

[Clay]

Never would I admit to it

didn't say I didn't have a VHF, I actually have three, two hand held.One for my Avon raft and one for my hand in case I loose my boat in the sand.agreed we have a right to risk our own lives, another reason I solo.Stepping on any boat has it's dangers, regardless of experience.I'm still here talking to you, so I haven't done that badly over the 25yrs.

 

[Clay]

sailortonyb

very kewl Tony

 

[rsn48]

Violating rules

sailortonyb, just about every rule you have written about concerning blue water boats are violated by racing boats such as used in the Volvo Race and others, wide beams, reduced point of return, etc. yet these boats sail around the world.I can't comment on what makes a quality blue water boat as I don't know if the technology has moved on since I started studying about sail boats. For me, "sea kindliness" would be right up there involving a full keel and a bit narrower hull. Weight would also be a factor, preferring heavier rather than lighter (I'm not in a race), thicker rather than thinner. The more storeage area, the better. These issues have all been mentioned in previous posts. These were the boats popular in the late 70's and 80's, like Cheoi Lee and the Taiwanese made CT.For me, around 37 feet is the perfect size, small enough to handle with a short crew, long enough to feel roomy down below.

 

[Ross]

RSN 48 being out there in the Vancover

area ask around about Lyn and Larry Pardey. They probably have more time under sail than anyone else these days.

 

[Terry Cox]

IMHO history has shown us that just about any...

production boat today (wood, FRP, concrete, metal) can handle off shore sailing. How the skipper and crew mentally prepare themselves, and equip and rig the boat for blue water cruising, is a matter of difference. Several books have been written by experienced blue water cruisers for those preparing to venture out will find valuable to heed their advice. Most of the important issues have to do with sail plan, stowage, weather, emergency communications, navigation, survival gear and the like, rather than hull thickness, type of keel, rudder, etc.So often a couple will cast off in the perfect boat only to find their relationship cannot withstand a boat's confinement for long periods and they end up abandoning their dream. Us, we've talked about it, but resign ourselves to protected water cruising; for now. The once blue water flame have become cooling embers, waiting for the day my admiral will say...let's do it.AMEE flotilla has decided on a cruise plan for next season. The first year was Desolation Sound. Last year was Discovery Islands. This year was Broughton Archipalego. Next year...circumnavigate Vancouver Island. The year after that, who knows maybe this will reignite the flame.Terry

 

[Ross]

AW, John, 'tis a sad day when a man gets more

answers then he can use. I don't know if you prefer performance racing boats or comfortable boats with some creature comforts. When the Volvo 50's leave the dock, creature comfort is left in port knowing that when they get to the next port they will be able to catch up on all that they sacrificed for a couple of weeks. When most cruising people leave the dock they know that the boat is going to be their home until they return to the home port. You have expressed some impatience with the range of opinions expressed here but perhaps you have gained some insight.

 

[Joe]

Here's a bluewater cruiser..

my neighor boat... a Bristol 27... has been all over the South Pacific.... Oversize rigging, heavy chainplates, low freeboard, full keel with internal ballast, small cockpit with bridgdeck, inboard diesel power... the point is.. you don't need an Amel Supermaru to have fun cruising.Sorry, can't get the picture to post.

 

[newly anonymous]

a simple answer

As far as I'm concerned, if you can load 300 feet of 3/8" high test into the chain locker and still have more than four feet of freeboard at the bow, it's a blue-water boat.

 

[Ross]

Clay, I don't think that we'll find

you single handing that one.

 

[Anchor Down]

Frankliin

Yes, I understand their points My point was that it all has very little to do with the actual QUESTION and does little to help the original poster.Regards,Jeff

 

[John Nantz]

Hello-o-o-o Brian!

Just wondering - are you still there? Have any comments or questions about these posts to your questions?

 

[Brian D]

Absolutely John...

I was just overwhelmed wtih the responses. As I might have expected, there were many different opinions on the subject. But for the most part the thing that sticks out the most, other than seaworthyness, is the ability of the skipper to be able to perform under the most difficult circumstances.With that, I see that I will need a lot more boating experience even before thinking of a long off-shore cruise. So maybe I'll stick to protected harbors (San Diego Bay), coastal (San Diego to Dana Point) and the Channel Islands for now.But while I am in my marina, I will continue to practice docking under different wind conditions, like I did on Saturday. Some folks watching me do touch and goes at the boat launch finger pier thought I was crazy. But I am learning how my bow reacts to different stimuli.

 

[sailortonyb]

RSN48....Volvo racing boats as cruisers?

You stated.."just about every rule you have written about concerning blue water boats are violated by racing boats such as used in the Volvo Race and others, wide beams, reduced point of return, etc. yet these boats sail around the world." Thanks for agreeing with me, racing boats and cruising boats are totally different in design. I dont know much about racing boats but I dont think that the original post was inquiring about a Volvo racing boat in specific. Not too many of them on the market. If you read the question, he asked what makes a cruising boat not a Volvo racing boat. Just because a boat makes it around the world doesnt necessarily mean it is a good boat for cruising. Also they are cutting edge technology, so i fail top see the connection. A ping pong ball will withstand hurricanes, tornadoes and almost anything mother nature can throw at it. I havent seen too many sailing ping pong balls lately.

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

Chain Plates?

I don't get the thing about exposed chainplates ...Just because a chainplate is through bolted on the hull has no bearing on how strong it is. In fact, it is easier to align the rigging loads with chainplates bolted to bulkheads and exiting through the deck. The rigging stresses can cause external chainplates to leak. If the hull is cored, this can lead to delam problems.Chainplates and shrouds at the edge of the deck limit the sheeting angles of large headsails. They tend to prevent the boat from pointing as high as it could.Just because Slocum's Spray was rigged that way it doesn't make it better for blue water.Full keel boats don't tend to sail upwind as well as fin keel boats either.We just had a long discussion about high wind and waves when close to a lee shore. How well a boat can go upwind in heavy air is a safety factor. Full keels and outboard chainplates don't help.There was a storm in Mexico some 25 years ago(Cabo 1982, 28 boats lost) that caught quite a few cruisers on a lee shore. When they started dragging they started running engines to ease the strain on the ground tackle. Some boats tried to sail off the lee shore, a Cal 40 was one of the few that made it. For you younger guys, when the Cal 40 came out in the 60's, it was criticised as being un-seaworthy and dangerous for it's fin keel and spade rudder (OMG! No Skeg!).There are more good sailors that can make marginal boats safe offshore than there are good boats that can make marginal sailors safe offshore.

 

[Franklin]

Unless you got a late 90s hunter

The late 90s hunter (33+) has the chainplates bolted through the hull but not exposed on the outside so no water can get in. They also have the sheets running inside the shrowds so you can point higher.Yes, I love my H376 (But not suggesting anybody cross an ocean with one)

 

[John Nantz]

Hi Brian! thanks for the reply

Hey, I'm glad you're watching because your post, as you pointed out, is getting a lot of responses. You know, as the Original Poster, you certainly have the right to weigh in with the discussion if you want. Editorial comment here: it seems so many fixate on the boat, and while that's important, so are many other factors, like the skipper, but also the routes to be traveled, weather situations to be encountered, and things like that, and then at the end of the day there is still the really remote trip-breakers like the piece of space junk falling out of the sky, pirates, floating containers, etc.Unfortunately for you Southern Cal people there aren't many places one can go for a cruise. Pretty much everywhere it's open and the Channel Islands get really crowded and can get some really high winds - which change direction even. If there is a good part it is that you're closer to Baja than the rest of us.Experience will improve confidence which will in turn help to get more experience. And that docking practice could even help in other ways that we don't even know about.Buccanner: That's a good saying you came up with!Clay: Did you want to add a Sou'wester hat to your list? For up here that's a good item to have.Also, is the Helmsman giving a salute or just holding on to the hat? Good picture by the way. Looks like someone is in a bit of a blow.

 

[Ross]

Moody, I too read a report on the incident

at Cabo San Lucas. I still have the article some where. The primary cause of the disaster was testosterone poisoning. Along the lines of ," charlie , are you gonna leave?" " no, not yet, I'm gonna wait and see if any body else leaves." Then engine water intake filters clogged with sand, propellers fouled anchor rodes. Boats dragged into the surf. It was noted that one boat had arrived under sail, anchored out because of engine trouble and left promptly when the weather deteriorated.As I recall most of the damage and loss was the result of poor choices rather than inadequate boats.

 

[Tom S]

Interesting Replys & discussions

I think there is a human desire to easily "classify" things. Such as what makes a boat a "Blue water" boat. I don't think its that easy, I don't think you can just list ceratin things and say "if it has these features its now classified as a blue water boat".I think a better way to discuss this topic is rather to talk in relative terms. Like certain designs & features are more "blue water" desirable than others. (i.e. Smaller more secure and deeper cockpit , Smaller Companionway with a higher bridgedeck, Larger/Better Self Draining cockpit, etc )So I agree with many discussions previously but I would more likely discuss blue water boats in relative terms. Like a Westsail is considered more "blue water" boat than a (lets say) a Hylas, and a Hylas is considered more "blue water" boat than a Tartan and a Tartan is considered more "blue water" boat than a Beneteau and a Beneteau is considered more "blue water" boat than a MacGregor (Just a personal aside - I saw someone list Beneteau's, Jenneau's, Catalina's etc in the "Blue Water" Class. I know a lot of people with serious cruising resumes that wouldn't consider these boats as "Blue Water". Not that they wouldn't sail them across oceans and not that they aren't fine boats - its just that its more of a stretch to consider them in the same class as lets say a Hylas, Hallberg-Rassy or Pacific Seacraft, etc. I guess when some people think "Blue Water" they think "High-Latitude" sailing and rounding the Capes )I like that someone pointed you too "Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of the Offshore Yachts" by John Rousmaniere . He's a bit of a traditionalist, but he's sailed enough miles offshore to know what ~can~ happen, so he tells you what features you should look for those more rare events & situations that might happen offshore.Here is someones personal list of attributes (not necessarily mine )- http://www.callipygia600.com/callnugget/allcruising/boatfind.htmI could argue that many are not at all necessary. For instance "In-board Deisel" - Heck the "Pardey's" have sailed all over the world & seem to do fine without one.Here is another interesting "List" of someone best offshore cruising boats using "fuzzy logic"http://www.johnsboatstuff.com/Articles/best.htm

 

[Moody Buccaneer]

True enough

Ross,Yes there was quite a bit of human error that added to the carnage in '82.The point that I was trying to make is that most people's lists of things that make for a good offshore boat do not put sailing ability at or near the top of the list.Slow heavy boats have to be strong because they get caught in bad weather more often.Slow heavy boats have to have better ground tackle because they are the last ones to get to the anchorage.Slow heavy boats need larger fuel tanks because they spend more time motoring.Fast boats that point well can cover more area in 24 hours, they have more weather routing choices. Fast boats don't need as much storage space, they spend fewer days on passages.Full keeled, heavy and slow is not a recipe for safety. It is a recipe for uncomfortable nights at sea in bad weather.

 

[Franklin]

Thanks Moody

So if one wants it all, like I do, then a light boat with an open transom and a large cockpit is great at anchor and CAN be great at sea. Lets look at the cockpit. Blue water designed boats say small cockpit because it will hold less water when being popped on and less of a distance to fall. Ok...an open transom will spill the water very fast so the amount of water that can come in shouldn't be a problem. The distance to fall can be overcome too by hanging rope cross the cockpit by the bimini to be used as handrails. If you have handrails in the cockpit, your not going to fall.