How does one tell the difference...

[Ross]

Moody, The last time I looked speed was

still a water line length factor. Heavy boats can carry more canvas than their lighter cousins. This doesn't make traditional full keel boats better or worse, it just makes them different. A well designed boat with modern lines is probably as secure a vessel as a Bristol Channel pilot boat. This shouldn't have become an either or debate, it was supposed to be a discussion of the desirable features of a passage maker. Adlard Coles in his book Heavy Weather Sailing has much to say about the observation he and others have made and he is careful to point out that the mindset of the crew is a very large factor in determinung the ability of the boat to weather a storm in good condition.

 

[RichH]

Clay ---

Many scantling proven blue water boats have deck stepped masts. Just look at many of the Bob Perry designed boats. If the mast & compression post "system" is designed correctly there are some advantages of a deck stepped system: water tight, less weight (aloft). Of course the mast doesnt simply sit on a 'shoe' on top of the deck but rather is properly stress connected to the compression post via a through-bolted flange. The real functional difference between a deck stepped and a keel stepped is that if you encounter a complete roll-over: The deck stepped will usually compeletly go overboard and the keel stepped will usually break off with only a small stub of the mast sticking up. Strength wise they are about the same if designed correctly. Give me less water leaks from a deck stepped. ;-) Blue water boat: Large redundant structural safety factors, small cockpit so that when severely pooped the weight of the boarded water wont severelly affect trim/stability, small / bombproof companionway, small heavily constructed portlights (no 'windows'), oversized rigging and chainplates (FS @ 5-6)... inboard or outboard doesnt really matter, many reacheable handholds inside and outside, very high / strong bridgedeck, lots of internal stowage, lots of 'reserve' buoyancy, bombproof hatches, etc., sea hood for companionway hatch .... and a knowledgeable skipper. For blue water, nothing wrong with a deep fin keel with a balanced spade rudder as they are faster and thus able to better/faster sail away from stink weather. The modern trend is towards long water line boats, fractional sloops (with detachable solent stays), fractional rigs, deep fins and balanced spade rudders .... they are faster thus safer. They can point to weather better, have less leeway when beating, take less helm pressure to steer (less power needed with autopilots, etc,), if properly balanced can steer just as stable as the old fashioned / traditional full keeler with an attached 'barn door' rudder. After having a traditional 'blue water' full keeler with attached rudder for some time, I'd change to a modern fractional, deep fin with balanced spade in a heart-beat. Ever try to turn the rudder on a full keeler with attached rudder at hull speed?? .... it takes 4 men and a small boy to do so as the resistance pressure on a 'barn door' rudder is that great. A balanced spade rudder can easily be steered with a tiller ... finger tip pressure - better helm feedback, smaller AP, etc. With a 'barn door' rudder you NEED a wheel to gain the needed mechanical advantage. You want protection for an exposed spade rudder ... thats what the keel is for! I usually sail going forward, not backwards; therefore, an 'unprotected' spade rudder is 'protected'. ;-)

 

[RichH]

Moody ----

You forgot to add that those with lightweight boats, although arriving at their destinations faster need to sleep non-stop for several days after their arrival to 'recover' from the beating they took during the passage. Heavy boats are more sea-kindly - and thats important to some. Heavy weight boats are not all that slow, especially once they get 'moving'; they do carry more momentum. Heavies usually carry more sail area and need a knowledgeable skipper who can power-up/power-down the sails more often than a lightweight. The real issue is perhaps not weight but rather 'water line length' as the older 'heavies' were built when big overhangs, etc. was the 'fashion'.

 

[Clay]

So then there is hope

for my boat in becoming maybe not a 'blue water' cruiser, but certainly a offshore cruiser. Having a deck stepped mast has always kept me from the longer off shore passages. Also that I have a swing centerboard doesn't give me the confidence I need. I have 6 portals that open, but they can be secured.My cockpit is larger then most, but I have two good size drains. I have a full stern rail with lifelines to the bow. Since I am not looking for the true blue water boat, the knowledge to know the difference doesn't hurt. My first biggest fears is fighting a leeward shore. Second fear is getting run over in the shipping lanes at night. The last time I went out in the Ocean for a day sail, I winded up spending the night out, because I was not familur with the inlet I was attempting, it was too dark so sailed 14nm off til morning, then returned to navigate the inlet. I stay'd on watch all night, I did not have a radar reflector, I should have though, wasn't smart (we're talking the doublebacked pie tins right). As far as a radar since I mentioned it, what kind should I be buying for my small boat to do inlet hoping.Thanks guys ...I appreciate all of your dialog

 

[RichH]

Hey Clay .....

You're already there; but, radar isnt a necessity to 'shoot' inlets. Having the common sense NOT to shoot an unfamiliar inlet at night or in adverse weather/tide conditions is much better than radar.As you probably already know the Jersey inlets can change course in a matter of days when all that sand starts to shift, so the temporary markers that lead you in/out may not be 'always' correct. The best advice for shooting an inlet is get the local knowledge of exactly where the channel is from the coasties, the commercial fishery guys, etc. .... all you need is a VHF or a cell-phone and then simply *wait* for the 'right' conditions. Even the large 'ocean going' commercial folks can have trouble .... as when I was young I saw quite a few 'upside down' ocean-going tugs, etc. in the Barnegat Inlet simply because they couldnt 'wait'.

 

[Clay]

If you can do Barnegat Inlet, your ready I guess

Right you are Rich, I may have lied a little when I said I wasn't familur, I am, that's why I stayed out. I usually wait for a local fishing boat to see his tracks before navigating the inlet. It was a full moon that night, another reason for staying out. Manasquan and Barnegat Inlets have both claimed many lifes over the years, mostly powerboaters getting swapped as they pitch pole over. The currents are always wicked and the submerged rocks almost going out to the sea bouy at Barnegats north side give me the creeps.

 

[Warren Milberg]

Prudent Mariner

I've been reluctant to join this thread as I think there has been some helpful, and not so helpful, information posted. Yet the question I would pose in trying to respond to the original poster is: "what would a prudent mariner do (in terms of the type of boat he/she would choose to go offshore in)? The key word being "prudent," and since there is no common agreement on just what that means, perhaps an example would help. Some years ago, I owned and sailed a 23-ft Alberg-designed, Ryder-built, Seasprite. It was a tough and rugged boat that I sailed in all kinds of conditions -- for limited periods of time. In researching the history of the design, the builder noted in sales literature that one person had made one transatlantic crossing in a Seasprite. There was no menntion about a return voyage... Does that mean a "prudent" mariner would or should choose to make a similar voyage in such a boat? This prudent mariner would not have much trouble responding "not on your (or my) life."

 

[Brian D]

The desire to venture off-shore...

is strong. The desire to just go out and work one's way back to home is also stong. But I guess one factor that eludes me is funding for a "seaworthy" craft. When I say "sea', I mean just that. Not bay, or harbor, or inlet, or estuary (are estuaries and inlets the same thing?).I know that my little Lancer 27 would fair well about 8-10 miles off shore, because I have been there. But would I venture 20, 30 maybe upto a full days sailing (5knt x 24hrs) to see what she will do? 20nm maybe, but beyond that (knowing there is not landfall awaiting me) I don't know. And it is not so much my vessel, but my skills as a sailor. However, one will not know or learn unless one ventures out there. So, with that and the information provided so far (and thanks for all the info), I will eventually venture in to the deep blue sea and test my skills, and my vessel's. Hopefully it will be a calm day with not potential storms looming in the distance.But the biggest question I have for myself, and only I can really answer it; is this what I really want to do as a sailor? Do I want to do transoceanic sailing, or do I just want to venture out into the wilderness of the ocean and see what kind of man I am made of?

 

[Clay]

Wish I had said that

ESP "to see what kind of man I am made of " is really what is it all about for me. From the local ponds in a little row boat as a young kid to my Seaward 24 jumping inlets, I still have much to learn about the deep....as you said Brian, ya need to be out there to learn it.How does it go 'The sea will not only test the vessel, but the metal of the crew as well.