How does one tell the difference...

[TT23844]

Coastal captain, not boat

Pete - The boat may have been 'blue water' but the person wearing the captains hat was , or should have been, a coastal cruiser. He got too close to the windward side of Sable Island.

 

[Ross]

TT hows close to the beach do you have

to stay to be a coastal cruiser? Coastal cruiring is much more dangerous than sailing off soundings. As I keep saying the thin places around the edges...........

 

[Bill Roosa]

Skiper is important but.....

The boat is going to have to have certain things or you will be looking mighty lean at the other end of the passage no matter how good the skipper is. A largish fuel tank, water is not so much a problem as you can get rain water, storage for food and drink is nice to have on a 30 day passage, a stove that works while at sea, a really big anchor and chain rode and another big anchor and chain rode and another big anchor and chain rode. You certainly do not want a "big open interior" with no hand holds but since most of your time will be at anchor you might want a "big open interior" with owner installed handholds. Sails are an important item. Heavily made with 3 reefs and one weight heaver than you would see on a production boat with lots of chafe gear installed. Storm sails and light wind sails too. An autopilot and windvane are a must. You might be able to get by with just an autopilot if you have enough generating capacity on board. A head that dumps overboard. Births that work when heeled so lee-boards/cloths or nice tight quarter births for all the crew. Really bright running lamps! A head that can be used while in a blow so nice and tight and some well placed hand holds. Wind/speed/GPS/Radar/depth are not that important and are a personal choice as to what you think is important. You will need at least two ways of telling where you are so pick 2 [GPS, sextant/chronometer, speed/log and a DR plot that is RELIGIOUSLY kept] and good up to date charts.The boat itself needs to go well to windward. Faster is better as you can get through the bad weather areas with less exposure. A dingy you can take the kedge out in in a bad storm and to windward.

 

[RichH]

Differences are structural .....

From a structural viewpoint, a generic 'blue water' boat is usually built to be 5 to 6 times stronger than it needs to be .... to cover such loads as the designer could not envision but do occur occasionally in the open ocean. A coastal boat is usually built to 2-3 times stronger than it needs to be ...."inshore" boats are even less. These 'multiplications' are called 'factors of safety' and are usually applied to ALL structures. Such safety factors are applied to handle impacts, repetetive stress, fatigue life, endurance and other 'unknowns' that cant be readily calculated nor predicted. Such safety factors are developed over a long time as history or 'scantlings' as based on insurance claims, etc. It defines what works and what doesnt usually survive ... on a statistical and historical basis. In engineering a structure that has a Safety Factor of 5-6 is considered 'bomb-proof' and 'built to take it' and will very rarely fail in the service intended. A structure with a safety factor of 2-3 will encounter failure occasionally if pressed to the upper limits of its intended service. it.

 

[Ross]

RichH, I disagree with you, You can build a boat

that is "bullet proof" but it may not be suitable for ocean cruising. If the cockpit drains are too small, If there is a lack of handholds topside and below, If there is a lack of storage space, If the boat depends excessively on electronics, if the companion is much below the combings, If the righting moment is too small, if the point of vanishing stability is less than about 150 degrees, If it can't be made water tight, then it is not suitable for long off shore passages.

 

[Benny]

Designed for navigation not for entertaining.

A boat designed for passage making will usually have a full keel, deep draft, a small cockpit, small sturdy port holes, outboard shrouds, large fuel and water tanks and heavy duty rigging. Many other boats can be equiped to adequately transit blue water. A coastal cruiser is usually considered to be a production boat of less than 30' designed more for light air performance, comfort and entertaining. Usually will have large cockpits, large companionways and large plastic portholes. They have usually a fin keel with shallow draft and carry a comparatively low displacement. I would hate to daysail a bluewater boat but I would not take a coastal cruiser in a blue water passage. There are hundreds of makes and many differences of opinion so the possibilities for consideration are seemingly endless.

 

[JimDavis]

In my opinion.....

You can turn most of the "coastal" boats into "bluewater" boats, but you can not turn a "bluewater" boat into a "coastal" boat for entertaining large group of friends in comfort.Like many others already explained it is really important to turn yourself into a "bluewater skipper".In 1994 at Marina del Rey, CA I told people that I'll be sailing solo to Costa Rica on my 1979 Catalina 30, they told me that it was impossible and I was crazy.My response was "if you know what you're doing you can cross oceans in a bathtub, but if you don't know what you're doing you'll be sinking your Titanic in calm waters right in front of the entrance of a marina".Of course I had some add-ons to my Catalina but nothing major.In that boat I faced 60 knot winds and 35-40 foot seas about 180 miles offshore of Nicaragua. Months after fun when I finally reached Costa Rica there was not a loose bolt on my boat.While cruising I was keep seeing the same 7-8 other boats on every other anchorage/port or so. These were between 40ft. and 52 ft. boats and every other stop they had blown sails, messed up furlers, engine problems etc.,My boat at that time cost only $19,000 to purchase and I probably spent another 7-8k on it for upgrades. Those boats with the problems were valued in excess of $250,000 and most of them were well known manufacturers' boats which advertised as "bluewater" boats.So there you go....Jim D.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Gotta have vs skipper savy

The thought I walk away with from this thread is that there are certain things that the boat just has to have. Storage for all the food is a good example. Then there are things that a less than savy skipper would need to have on the boat. Stronger than (a savy skipper would need) sails is an example. And finaly there are those things that make life on the hook nice but make a passage uncomfortable but the savy skipper has developed a set of skills or bought some hardware to midigate the problem. An open cabin with lots of owner installed hand holds for instance.So I guess this is one of those chicken-egg things. You need a "true" blue water boat to get the experience to be a savy skipper so you don't need a "true" blue water boat. I guess I'd start out small and work my way up to my final boat.

 

[Ctskip]

I alway thought the differance was

keel depth/weight ratio, the ability to make water, and a overboard pump out for the head. Naturally, electronic equipment. Good latching drawers and doors. Fixed portholes, few hatches. Benny said it best. Post #26 Keep it up,  Ctskip

 

[Ross]

This has been a fun thread. There

have been some excellent books written on the subject. The one I have is "Cruising Sailboat Kenetics" by Danny Greene N.A. There are others.

 

[sailingseadragon]

If you are really interested in this topic read

"Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of the Offshore Yachts" by Stephen L. Davis & John Rousmaniere This well written easy to read book that should be on anyone’s book list seriously considering an offshore voyage.Good luck

 

[Warren Milberg]

For Franklin

I find it sad that you can't appreciate humor when you see it. More importantly, my post and picture was meant as a metaphor -- and warning --for all those wannabe blue water sailors who either don't have the experience, or the right boat, to sail out of sight of land. The boat in that picture didn't get there by having an experienced captain at the helm. My advice to you is to relax,loosen up, and try to fix your own faults prior to finding them in others....

 

[Clay]

Sorry Pete I didn't know

it was your boat in the picture, hope your alright.

 

[Warren Milberg]

For Clay

Yep, I'm still shaking sand out of my ears....

 

[Warren Milberg]

Pete has it right

Perhaps like Pete, I guess I've seen too many examples of people with little or no experience or training wanting to set off on an offshore adventure in an entirely inappropriate boat. They always point to the ones that "made it" in a 10-ft dinghy they made in the garage. While such people have every right to risk their own lives, many of these adventures wind up sucking up valuable and declining resources of the USCG and other SAR or rescue services. All of us then pay the real bill for these types.

 

[Clay]

No communication

Actually almost happened to me. I went off shore about 3 miles, out of Barnegat Inlet to Atlantic city.I told my wife I would call her on the way from my cell, but couldn't get a signal. I closed in on a leeward shore near a tower to pick up a signal, I was seeing the top spray of the breakers just a few waves away before I realized I shouldn't be so close. Tried to sail off but as the shore line changed, it seemed to get even closer. I started my outboard (which is another item not meant for blue water I am sure)before I was a comfortable distance away again. I did manage to make the call, otherwise I would of had the coast guard looking for me. So I think a satalite hook up would be necessary for communication. I suppose I could have made a call through my VHF, but that too is limited I understand.

 

[sailortonyb]

Lots of factors

There are lots of factors that contribute to what is commonly called a blue water boat. I believe that one of the key factors is the 'righting moment' or the point at which a boat when knocked down will not right itself. This factor has become a subject of debate over the years. Other factors include the size and strength of the rigging and as previously stated, the amount of fuel and water that can be carried. There are many more factors and all one can do is read the many books on the market. This forum is not a really good source of info. People like myself add a lot of suppositions and are not really sure. Others add nonsense and state as fact. Also read some of the available books and take them with a grain of salt. The authors are somewhat opinionated and just because someone writes a book doesnt necessarily make them an expert.It just means that they wrote a book. Examples of blue-water boats are Baba, Westsail, Benatau,Hinkley, Juneau, some of the newer larger Catalina's ( I think, not sure.) and many many more. Also as previously stated, coastal cruisers can be upgraded to perform safely in blue water. Also keep in mind that there are good blue water boats and there are bad blue water boats. If I didnt have crosing oceans in mind, I wouldnt necessarily go out and buy a blue water boat. Most blue water boats have a narrower beam than a coastal cruiser of the same length. This gives a better ability to handle head seas and less likely to roll, however this substantially reduces the interior living space. Some boats are more 'sea kindly' than others and this factor is not normally used to determine sea worthyness, although it should be.The wider beam will also come off a wave and come to a stop. Blue water boats are generally much heavier than coastal cruisers and therefore dont sail well in light winds, some actually sail like slugs. This can be somewhat overcome by using a cruising spinnaker. Sloop rigs are generally not desireable because of the large sail area. Go for a cutter or ketch. They will both give more options in sails in various weather conditions. Bottom line is.....dont get a true blue water boat if you dont intend to sail across oceans.Also, just because someone got lucky and sailed across the ocean in a bathtub, dont think this is normally possible. We never read about the fools that die along the way.

 

[Clay]

Norm

That's why I like this site & topic, so "THEY" can be more knowledge.

 

[sailortonyb]

Clay..No communication !!!

Clay, consider getting a HAM Radio operators license. Now easier than ever to get. Restrictions and testing have really eased up to try to maintain a dying hobby. Anyway, I recently crossed the Gulf of Mexico with some friends from Tampa bay area to Galveston, Tx. There exists a free volunteer service to mariners on HAM frequency 14.300 MHz. For more info on this this service go to mmsn.org. Anything from weather reports to making phone calls for you to plotting your course and position on a chart and leaving notes for others (friends and family ) to see on the internet (shiptrak.org). For an example of this, go to shiptrak.org and key in my call sign KC5SDI and you will be able to see the mesages we left for our friends and family. It sure took the worry out of a lot of peeople when we were way way out of normal communications range.

 

[Warren Milberg]

For Clay

From your recent post about going all of 3 miles "offshore", not being able to communicate on your cell phone, the absense of a VHF, being too close to the surf, et al, it would seem the boat in Pete's picture was actually yours....Like the other poster said, that boat didn't get into the sand with an experienced captain at the helm.