After years of operating my 1995 Hunter 336 very successfully, I find myself confused with my new 2006 Hunter 38. It sails nicely and I really enjoy it. No real complaints about the boat. However, I sure can not get the thing to have any sternway. As I gently coast to a stop and put the transmission in reverse, the bow immediately moves to the starboard and the stern starts moving to the port. I give it a bit of thrust and then back off the throttle in hopes of having the rudder gain control. The boat will straigten out in 2 or 3 boat lengths. I then can drive successfully in a straight line. The problem is: turning. The helm is very un-responsive. Where our 336 turned on a dime, this one will hardly turn at all. If anyone has any thoughts on how I can improve my ability to come into the slip stern first and not look like a fool, I would really appreciate the help.
How do I steer in reverse
- Thread starter Shamal
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It is called prop walk or P-factor
There is no cure except practice. Get 4 floats and some string weights and make a fake slip out in open water. Practice there. The faster you go and the faster the prop turns increses the prop walk feature of your boat. Try using the transmission in forward to give short blasts of water over the rudder to help control things when backing. And GO SLOW and at reduced RPM. Since you know how the prop walk effects the steering try and use it to advantage by anticipating its effect too. My legend 37 has moderate prop walk which was a big supprize as my previous boat had almost none. I now go so slow that everybody is packed up and ready to get off the boat before I have any dock lines on.
There is no cure except practice. Get 4 floats and some string weights and make a fake slip out in open water. Practice there. The faster you go and the faster the prop turns increses the prop walk feature of your boat. Try using the transmission in forward to give short blasts of water over the rudder to help control things when backing. And GO SLOW and at reduced RPM. Since you know how the prop walk effects the steering try and use it to advantage by anticipating its effect too. My legend 37 has moderate prop walk which was a big supprize as my previous boat had almost none. I now go so slow that everybody is packed up and ready to get off the boat before I have any dock lines on.
Speed Control
After lot's of practice this is what I do. Always keep speed at a minimum when on reverse, once you gain some momentum throw the transmision in neutral and steer.
After lot's of practice this is what I do. Always keep speed at a minimum when on reverse, once you gain some momentum throw the transmision in neutral and steer.
Shamal
Shamal...if you get your speed up and then put it in neutral, the prop walk will be eliminated. If you still have trouble steering then it has to be the conditions like a cross current/wind, not the boat, and you will have to increase your speed to give the rudder more power.
Shamal...if you get your speed up and then put it in neutral, the prop walk will be eliminated. If you still have trouble steering then it has to be the conditions like a cross current/wind, not the boat, and you will have to increase your speed to give the rudder more power.
different prop?
Good commets already but to add one item, there should be no significant difference between your 33 and the 38 except for one thing - larger prop? I wonder if you now have a 3 blade instead of a 2 blade on the small boat. If so, the prop walk would be more noticeable albeit controllable once you get used to it. The only way to reduce it is, as others suggest, get used to powering into reverse and dealing with the walk until you get some water flowing past the rudder at which time you should be able to hit neutral thereby eliminating the walk when rudder control is greater. The only other choice you have is get rid of the fixed prop but that's the expensive alternative.
Good commets already but to add one item, there should be no significant difference between your 33 and the 38 except for one thing - larger prop? I wonder if you now have a 3 blade instead of a 2 blade on the small boat. If so, the prop walk would be more noticeable albeit controllable once you get used to it. The only way to reduce it is, as others suggest, get used to powering into reverse and dealing with the walk until you get some water flowing past the rudder at which time you should be able to hit neutral thereby eliminating the walk when rudder control is greater. The only other choice you have is get rid of the fixed prop but that's the expensive alternative.
classic mistake
Never try to make a larger boat handle like a smaller boat. It takes a bigger boat longer to accelerate, and the rudder won't work until a certain certain amount of acceleration has taken place. If you're cranking on the wheel like a madman because you wanted your 38 to turn like a 33, it means that the rudder is going to take even longer to get a bite than if it were straight ahead. A second thing to be aware of is that the 38 has significantly more freeboard than the 33 did, which means that your bow is more prone to weather-cocking at slow speeds. Bottom line: the sooner you get that sweet-handling 33 out of your head, the seener you'll realize how nicely the 38 handles, especially in reverse.
Never try to make a larger boat handle like a smaller boat. It takes a bigger boat longer to accelerate, and the rudder won't work until a certain certain amount of acceleration has taken place. If you're cranking on the wheel like a madman because you wanted your 38 to turn like a 33, it means that the rudder is going to take even longer to get a bite than if it were straight ahead. A second thing to be aware of is that the 38 has significantly more freeboard than the 33 did, which means that your bow is more prone to weather-cocking at slow speeds. Bottom line: the sooner you get that sweet-handling 33 out of your head, the seener you'll realize how nicely the 38 handles, especially in reverse.
Hey, Rick on M dock
That you? The problem Shamal has is that backing in is a counter-clockwise turn, where you want to stern to go to starboard and the prop wants to go to port. I have severe prop walk in reverse, especially the first boat length of distance when starting to back. I would suggest avoiding idleing in reverse in the first boat length. I think you have the right idea of going past your slip a couple of boat lengths, get your bow pointed away from your slip on the other side of the fairway, then a short burst of half throttle for a few (5?)seconds so you reverse for 1/2 boat length, then to neutal to see if the stern will start going to starboard. Or you could go past your slip and make a bow forward 180 degree clockwise turn using forward and reverse with your rudder always hard to starboard, then make a clockwise turn in reverse to get into your slip. Or maybe think about trading slips(M17, Celebration) with me. Scott
That you? The problem Shamal has is that backing in is a counter-clockwise turn, where you want to stern to go to starboard and the prop wants to go to port. I have severe prop walk in reverse, especially the first boat length of distance when starting to back. I would suggest avoiding idleing in reverse in the first boat length. I think you have the right idea of going past your slip a couple of boat lengths, get your bow pointed away from your slip on the other side of the fairway, then a short burst of half throttle for a few (5?)seconds so you reverse for 1/2 boat length, then to neutal to see if the stern will start going to starboard. Or you could go past your slip and make a bow forward 180 degree clockwise turn using forward and reverse with your rudder always hard to starboard, then make a clockwise turn in reverse to get into your slip. Or maybe think about trading slips(M17, Celebration) with me. Scott
But Franklin . .. .
If you get compliments isn't it because your docking performance is "note worthy" as in not average. So give Shamal some more pointers, you single handing docking, in a cross wind, guru.;D
If you get compliments isn't it because your docking performance is "note worthy" as in not average. So give Shamal some more pointers, you single handing docking, in a cross wind, guru.;D
Scott
I know that is sarcastic but I'll try to think it wasn't
This is how I do it. I pass my slip by about 4 slips. If it is a strong cross wind, I angle my boat into the wind just before stopping and also keeping my boat on the windward side of the fareway. The prop walk and wind will push my boat straight and into the middle of the fareway as I take it easy getting backwards momentum. Sometimes I miss judge it so I have to give it more gas to get going quicker and then let off. Once I get going, I just put it in idle (not a problem for me but you may need to put it in neutral). I'm still about two+ slips away as I drift backwards. I start lining up my boat to head directly for the poll at a 45 degree angle. Once I am about 20' out I put her in neutral. Once I am about 8' from the poll I turn it sharply into the slip (no prop walk because the prop isn't moving...the wind is helping with the turn...no current here). Once the stern is in the slip I kill the engine, hop off with my stern line in hand and tie her off when she drifts back. Sometimes if the wind is hard I will either give her some more gas just before turning her off or I will pull her back. Just two tips here...I keep the speed real slow, use the wind to my advantage to help turn the boat for me, and always use a line when trying to handle the boat from the dock/finger. I see so many people trying to stop the boat by the life lines. I have it easy though. My rub rail protects me from the poll and I actually let the bow blow up against the poll on purpose so I can easily reach my bow lines on the poll (I love my rub rail ). The wind is usually blowing to stop my mommentum and also help turn me. That is the reason I picked that slip. But...I feel it can be done with any fin keel boat just as easy. You may have to use a mid-ship line or both stern and bow though instead of the stern line that I use. Remember: Prop walk is always eliminated when you are in neutral.
I know that is sarcastic but I'll try to think it wasn't
This is how I do it. I pass my slip by about 4 slips. If it is a strong cross wind, I angle my boat into the wind just before stopping and also keeping my boat on the windward side of the fareway. The prop walk and wind will push my boat straight and into the middle of the fareway as I take it easy getting backwards momentum. Sometimes I miss judge it so I have to give it more gas to get going quicker and then let off. Once I get going, I just put it in idle (not a problem for me but you may need to put it in neutral). I'm still about two+ slips away as I drift backwards. I start lining up my boat to head directly for the poll at a 45 degree angle. Once I am about 20' out I put her in neutral. Once I am about 8' from the poll I turn it sharply into the slip (no prop walk because the prop isn't moving...the wind is helping with the turn...no current here). Once the stern is in the slip I kill the engine, hop off with my stern line in hand and tie her off when she drifts back. Sometimes if the wind is hard I will either give her some more gas just before turning her off or I will pull her back. Just two tips here...I keep the speed real slow, use the wind to my advantage to help turn the boat for me, and always use a line when trying to handle the boat from the dock/finger. I see so many people trying to stop the boat by the life lines. I have it easy though. My rub rail protects me from the poll and I actually let the bow blow up against the poll on purpose so I can easily reach my bow lines on the poll (I love my rub rail ). The wind is usually blowing to stop my mommentum and also help turn me. That is the reason I picked that slip. But...I feel it can be done with any fin keel boat just as easy. You may have to use a mid-ship line or both stern and bow though instead of the stern line that I use. Remember: Prop walk is always eliminated when you are in neutral.
Good Stuff Franklin
I was kidding you, but wanted the details. Good points about knowing what to do with the wind that comes into play. Bill, I can't do the physics, but the propeller is rotating on a plane 90 degrees to the boats direction of travel. Viewed from behind the boat, when in forward ( typical setup) the prop spins clockwise and but for the shaft, the prop would spin/walk itself to the right/starboard. Now, picture the prop as a paddle wheel going clockwise, it is going to paddle the stern to the right/starboard in forward and paddle the stern to port when going in reverse. The rudder overcomes this force, but only when enough speed/water force over the rudder is built up.
I was kidding you, but wanted the details. Good points about knowing what to do with the wind that comes into play. Bill, I can't do the physics, but the propeller is rotating on a plane 90 degrees to the boats direction of travel. Viewed from behind the boat, when in forward ( typical setup) the prop spins clockwise and but for the shaft, the prop would spin/walk itself to the right/starboard. Now, picture the prop as a paddle wheel going clockwise, it is going to paddle the stern to the right/starboard in forward and paddle the stern to port when going in reverse. The rudder overcomes this force, but only when enough speed/water force over the rudder is built up.
Prop response
This topic is a perennial, I've written a few responses in the past. One thing I would add. This year I bought a 41; the one "toy" I specified was a Variprop. I am very pleased with this decision. The boat develops lots of power going astern and, if you need to, the p factor can be adjusted out. John
This topic is a perennial, I've written a few responses in the past. One thing I would add. This year I bought a 41; the one "toy" I specified was a Variprop. I am very pleased with this decision. The boat develops lots of power going astern and, if you need to, the p factor can be adjusted out. John
Eliminating prop walk
This isn't so much for eliminating prop walk, but for reducing the problem. When going in reverse, the easy thing to do is just leave it in reverse. I find that by cycling the transmission into and out of reverse, in pulses of perhaps 3-5 seconds, it gives you enough momentum in reverse to make way, but not so much that it causes extreme prop walk. And as far as coming in stern-first and looking cool... is it possible to pass your slip on the port side allowing you to use the prop walk to your advantage?
This isn't so much for eliminating prop walk, but for reducing the problem. When going in reverse, the easy thing to do is just leave it in reverse. I find that by cycling the transmission into and out of reverse, in pulses of perhaps 3-5 seconds, it gives you enough momentum in reverse to make way, but not so much that it causes extreme prop walk. And as far as coming in stern-first and looking cool... is it possible to pass your slip on the port side allowing you to use the prop walk to your advantage?
Propwalk is...
Franklin Boats with horizontal propshafts do not have prop walk. The more the shaft is inclined from the horizontal the more extreme the prop walk. The absolute extreme example is a helicopter. It is so bad in a helicopter that they have to adjust the "prop" pitch on each blade as it turns. So why do you have to do that on a helicopter anyway? I'm glad you asked. As a helicopter lifts straight up the angle of all the blades is constant and identical. Just like a horizontal prop shaft. As the helicopter moves forward the blade that is traveling forward will be moving faster through the air than the blade that is moving backward. So the forward moving blade makes more lift and tends to make the helicopter roll to the side (propwalk) of the rearward moving blade. So you take pitch out of the forward moving blade and add pitch to the rearward moving one. Now a water prop can not be adjusted like that and the blade that is "rising" produces less thrust than the blade that is moving downward. This gives you (for CW rotation) a greater force on the starboard side of the prop which causes what we call prop walk. Couple of thing we can learn from this. A boat that is not moving through the water does not experience prop walk. The faster you go the more extreme it gets. So go full tilt reverse as you come to a stop and then shift to neurtal and let momentum work for you till the rudder starts working. Go REAL SLOW. Not always an option if the wind or current is up but slower is going to make prop walk less pronounced. Use bursts of throttle. And of course don't forget that you can put it in forward and use the propwash over the rudder to perform amazing feats of docking.
Franklin Boats with horizontal propshafts do not have prop walk. The more the shaft is inclined from the horizontal the more extreme the prop walk. The absolute extreme example is a helicopter. It is so bad in a helicopter that they have to adjust the "prop" pitch on each blade as it turns. So why do you have to do that on a helicopter anyway? I'm glad you asked. As a helicopter lifts straight up the angle of all the blades is constant and identical. Just like a horizontal prop shaft. As the helicopter moves forward the blade that is traveling forward will be moving faster through the air than the blade that is moving backward. So the forward moving blade makes more lift and tends to make the helicopter roll to the side (propwalk) of the rearward moving blade. So you take pitch out of the forward moving blade and add pitch to the rearward moving one. Now a water prop can not be adjusted like that and the blade that is "rising" produces less thrust than the blade that is moving downward. This gives you (for CW rotation) a greater force on the starboard side of the prop which causes what we call prop walk. Couple of thing we can learn from this. A boat that is not moving through the water does not experience prop walk. The faster you go the more extreme it gets. So go full tilt reverse as you come to a stop and then shift to neurtal and let momentum work for you till the rudder starts working. Go REAL SLOW. Not always an option if the wind or current is up but slower is going to make prop walk less pronounced. Use bursts of throttle. And of course don't forget that you can put it in forward and use the propwash over the rudder to perform amazing feats of docking.
Who agrees with this statement?
A boat that is not moving through the water does not experience prop walk.
A boat that is not moving through the water does not experience prop walk.
Re: Who agrees with this statement?
That statement is somewhat incorrect. At 0 knots speed, you would theoretically have the most prop walk, since there is no counteractive force (water over rudder) to the thrust of the prop. The faster you went in reverse, the more drastically the prop walk would disappear. This is what allows me to come into my slip at a 15(ish) degree angle and shift into reverse and throttle up to stop the boat and bring the stern twoards port to the dock. However, that statement is true regarding powerboats. A vessel with one drive unit may experience prop walk which can not only be caused by the relative angle of attack of the prop, but also slop in the driveline of outdrives. My Bayliner would wildly walk back and forth at low speeds. However, dual drive units, which most are geared so that one prop spins clockwise, and one counterclockwise (at least my experience with offshores) This is done to create equal but opposite forces on the back of the boat to correct the prop/chine walk. The Volvo/Penta and Merc. DP's also solve the prop walk problem with counter-rotating props. Sorry to get off the sail topic here.
That statement is somewhat incorrect. At 0 knots speed, you would theoretically have the most prop walk, since there is no counteractive force (water over rudder) to the thrust of the prop. The faster you went in reverse, the more drastically the prop walk would disappear. This is what allows me to come into my slip at a 15(ish) degree angle and shift into reverse and throttle up to stop the boat and bring the stern twoards port to the dock. However, that statement is true regarding powerboats. A vessel with one drive unit may experience prop walk which can not only be caused by the relative angle of attack of the prop, but also slop in the driveline of outdrives. My Bayliner would wildly walk back and forth at low speeds. However, dual drive units, which most are geared so that one prop spins clockwise, and one counterclockwise (at least my experience with offshores) This is done to create equal but opposite forces on the back of the boat to correct the prop/chine walk. The Volvo/Penta and Merc. DP's also solve the prop walk problem with counter-rotating props. Sorry to get off the sail topic here.
I agree with you, Shamal
I also have a Hunter 38 and agree it is agreat boat to sail but a pig to reverse compared with my previous boat, a Beneteau 361. Both boats have a feathering prop so changing the prop is not the answer.
I also have a Hunter 38 and agree it is agreat boat to sail but a pig to reverse compared with my previous boat, a Beneteau 361. Both boats have a feathering prop so changing the prop is not the answer.
lets not mix up control of the boat and
prop walk. I totaly agree that as the boat goes faster the rudder will gain control and have a greater effect than porp walk will. I was only addressing prop walk not the use of the rudder to control it. Considering this I would expect there to be a backing speed that has the most noticable prop walk. Below that speed the rudder is overcome by the prop and lack of water flow and above that speed the rudder overcomes prop walk. I suspect that "worst" speed is right at the speed you want to dock at.
prop walk. I totaly agree that as the boat goes faster the rudder will gain control and have a greater effect than porp walk will. I was only addressing prop walk not the use of the rudder to control it. Considering this I would expect there to be a backing speed that has the most noticable prop walk. Below that speed the rudder is overcome by the prop and lack of water flow and above that speed the rudder overcomes prop walk. I suspect that "worst" speed is right at the speed you want to dock at.
There is an easy way to test my comment
Tie the boat to the dock and put her in reverse. If what I say is true it should just pull on the lines and not drift to starboard or rotate clockwise around the keel (CW rotation of the prop). I tried this and that is what my boat does.
Tie the boat to the dock and put her in reverse. If what I say is true it should just pull on the lines and not drift to starboard or rotate clockwise around the keel (CW rotation of the prop). I tried this and that is what my boat does.
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