I have seen pics of two piece rudders for V21 and wanted to know if this was made from a kit or if this was a option from the factory. Does anyone sell a kit to convert my one piece to a two piece? I am not interested in spending $600 for a Ida sailor rudder.
how do I make a two piece rudder for a V21?
- Thread starter troutman
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Troutman: Go look at a Catalina 250 2 piece rudder and copy it. Its just a couple pieces of large plates of aluminum bolted to the top part and a Torque bolt through the plate securing the bottom half. Chief
the only technical part of it is, is how you cut the old rudder board in half.... check out the 2 photos of the rudder on my 21...
if you have a wood rudder its a very easy modifcation...
depending on how big you want the plates and the shape of them, you need to cut the rudder on an angle, or rounded torward the rear of the lower board, so there is lots of wood for the pivot.....
its way easy to manufacture the plates, drill the mounting holes, and pivot hole in them, then use them as a pattern to drill the rudder....
once the plates fit perfectly and bolt up, with your precision drilling abilities, then remove the plates and cut your rudder it two pieces.... make sure its dry before doing all this.....
sand and relieve the saw kerf a bit more, and sand the sides of the lower board just a little so the board will swing between the plates well, then paint it all with epoxy...
after it cures, bolt it all together....
if you have a wood rudder its a very easy modifcation...
depending on how big you want the plates and the shape of them, you need to cut the rudder on an angle, or rounded torward the rear of the lower board, so there is lots of wood for the pivot.....
its way easy to manufacture the plates, drill the mounting holes, and pivot hole in them, then use them as a pattern to drill the rudder....
once the plates fit perfectly and bolt up, with your precision drilling abilities, then remove the plates and cut your rudder it two pieces.... make sure its dry before doing all this.....
sand and relieve the saw kerf a bit more, and sand the sides of the lower board just a little so the board will swing between the plates well, then paint it all with epoxy...
after it cures, bolt it all together....
Thanks for the reply. I think this will not be too hard. Do you use a sleeve for the pivot hole? Does the line that holds up the rudder also hold it down or should I use a wood dowel that will shear off if needed.
Troutman: I have never looked in the pivot hole but would think that would be wise to sleeve it. I intend to pin my keel with at least a dowel but in my case I am more inclined to just bolt it. I do not really like the retractable keel. The line just pulls it back and pivot bolt tension is all that holds it down. I have had it kick up when not wanting it to and hit my new 2013 Tohatsu prop! With a wing keel I can't see that I need it. Hope this helps you with your decision and project. Chief
Chief, Centerline, I see that some kick up rudders use pivot bolt tension to hold down the rudder and some use a lead weight. The Michalak design uses a weight and a hoist lanyard that ties off on a cleat on the tiller. I am leaning toward this design, both for its function and that is more pleasing visually. As a bonus he lives about 20 miles from me.
Most kick-up rudders float, and use line tension to hold the rudder down. The pivot bolt or sheer weight would not work well at all.
no sleeve is necessary, because its not a wear point. it doenst "work" under load... but a sleeve could help in as much as it would hold the plates apart so they dont squeeze so hard against the side of the lower rudder board, and allow it to pivot properly...
a "jam" cleat will hold the rudder up and it will also hold it down....... if you attach the holing line to the leading edge of the rudder board, and the cleat at the top of the rudder stock, when the rudder is down the line will be in front of the pivot holding the board down, and when the board is up, the line will pass behind the pivot bolt, holding the board up....as it swings with the board, but the pivot remains stationary...
a "jam" cleat will hold the rudder up and it will also hold it down....... if you attach the holing line to the leading edge of the rudder board, and the cleat at the top of the rudder stock, when the rudder is down the line will be in front of the pivot holding the board down, and when the board is up, the line will pass behind the pivot bolt, holding the board up....as it swings with the board, but the pivot remains stationary...
Brian, if I were to use five pounds of lead on a plywood kick up rudder encased in fiberglass it would seem that the rudder would stay down but still able to kick up in the event of a grounding. Maybe I am missing something here? I am sincerely asking, not trying to be a know it all. The weight would be on the bottom front edge. I planned to drill a hole with a hole saw, melt the lead, fill the hole with lead then put another layer of fiberglass over the lead. Maybe someone has tried this and it did not work?
Centerline, I am still working out the details. I would like to do this just once, your ideas are sound but what happens in the event of a grounding? The jam cleat would hold the rudder down and damage the rudder and possibly the transom. I will be sailing in Carlye lake which averages only five feet.
Troutman: Havn't tried the lead but that addresses my complaint about the kick ups. I would prefer a normally down rather than a normally up floater concept. I think you would like it lots better if its dendency is to stay down and only come up when you desire, or an emergency grounding situation. Centerlines method won't hurt the rudder or pintles as the cord breaks in a grounding. Chief
Chief, so the idea is to use a cord that will break before anything else does but is still strong enough to raise the rudder. There is a thread and pic in the trailor sailor forum that looked promising. As always with my projects the engineering, time and materials will nearly equal the cost of a production made unit, but this is fun anyway.
Troutman: One nice thing about a shallow lake; if you get in trouble out there you can always just walk home! ha Chief
Chief, yes and no, Carlye lake is 3 miles wide and 6 miles long, unless Jesus is with you you aint gona make the walk.
Troutman: Yes, just carry extra cord. I would think 1/8" cord would work fine. This concept is how the McGregors do their rudders on some of their boats. Maybe just drill holes in the bottom of the rudder and wiggle the holes larger at the top and pour in hot lead. Then seal with epoxy glue and epoxy paint? This won't cost you much, its just the time it takes. Chief
Chief, It just so happens I have several gallons of epoxy paint that I paid $1 per gallon for. This is the time of year that paint stores clearance their old stock, Sherwin Williams will allow their paint to sit in the store for a year and then they get rid of it, cheap. I know this is not technically related to this conversation but this thread is almost dead so why can't I hijack it before someone else does?
Troutman: Or, you could just shoot the rudder however many times it takes to equal 5 lbs! ha Chief
in almost every case, it isnt the rudder that is going to be grounding, its the keel... it hangs a lot lower and will stop the boat before the rudder knows there is a problem.
the rudder needs to kick up so when you want to beach the boat you can crank up the keel and swing up the rudder and get in to a shallow shore, or when anchored and swinging in shallow water.
I have always used a 1/4 inch holding line on my 21 (5/16 on my 25), a cheap soft braid polyester... it will last forever, but will stretch enough when needed to allow the rudder to cam itself over and pop up... the line wont break and doesnt need to... all the rudder needs to do is swing back far enough to carry the bight of the holding line aft of the pivot bolt, and its free. it takes very little stretch to do this, but more than sta-set has..
using lead in the bottom of the rudder is done ONLY to make it neutrally buoyant, NOT to hold it down (it would take an unreasonable amount of weight to do this, and the rudder would be hard to manhandle when rigging a trailer sailer).
even though it is not at all necessary, it may be nice to have a weighted board in cold winter water so you dont have to get wet to push the board down.
the unweighted rudder will float up on its pivot, so it doesnt need to have a holding line upwards, EXCEPT for when you pull the boat out of the water on a trailer....
but the unweighted rudder will need to pushed downward until it gets into position, and then snub it with the line (there is a rudder push-pull stick mod that you can do, but you need to get the basics done first)
having a bit of weight at the bottom would help with the buoyancy, but the weight needs to be near the aft edge, not the leading edge... i did not have or want weight on mine, and would never recommend it, as when the rudder gets in a spot where it needs relief, I want it all the way up as quickly as it can be up, and as it is buoyant, it floats to the surface and stays there without help from me.... until I can figure out what the problem is.
(because whenever I have gone aground, I was way too busy dropping sails, removing the keel lock pin, cranking up the keel, and the motor so I could get back to deeper water, to be fiddling with a rudder that was set up so that it would tend to itself)
any weight that you think is a good idea can always be added later after you get the basic folding rudder built, and then use it a couple of times to see how far you want to take it beyond the simple device that it is... and that it should be.
the rudder needs to kick up so when you want to beach the boat you can crank up the keel and swing up the rudder and get in to a shallow shore, or when anchored and swinging in shallow water.
I have always used a 1/4 inch holding line on my 21 (5/16 on my 25), a cheap soft braid polyester... it will last forever, but will stretch enough when needed to allow the rudder to cam itself over and pop up... the line wont break and doesnt need to... all the rudder needs to do is swing back far enough to carry the bight of the holding line aft of the pivot bolt, and its free. it takes very little stretch to do this, but more than sta-set has..
using lead in the bottom of the rudder is done ONLY to make it neutrally buoyant, NOT to hold it down (it would take an unreasonable amount of weight to do this, and the rudder would be hard to manhandle when rigging a trailer sailer).
even though it is not at all necessary, it may be nice to have a weighted board in cold winter water so you dont have to get wet to push the board down.
the unweighted rudder will float up on its pivot, so it doesnt need to have a holding line upwards, EXCEPT for when you pull the boat out of the water on a trailer....
but the unweighted rudder will need to pushed downward until it gets into position, and then snub it with the line (there is a rudder push-pull stick mod that you can do, but you need to get the basics done first)
having a bit of weight at the bottom would help with the buoyancy, but the weight needs to be near the aft edge, not the leading edge... i did not have or want weight on mine, and would never recommend it, as when the rudder gets in a spot where it needs relief, I want it all the way up as quickly as it can be up, and as it is buoyant, it floats to the surface and stays there without help from me.... until I can figure out what the problem is.
(because whenever I have gone aground, I was way too busy dropping sails, removing the keel lock pin, cranking up the keel, and the motor so I could get back to deeper water, to be fiddling with a rudder that was set up so that it would tend to itself)
any weight that you think is a good idea can always be added later after you get the basic folding rudder built, and then use it a couple of times to see how far you want to take it beyond the simple device that it is... and that it should be.
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Centerline: Good post. You obviously know this concept well. Your info tells me that my rudder doesn't perform as you described so I had better reanalyze it. Chief