Centerline, thanks for the detailed description of concept and design. You are also correct in pointing out that the Keel will ground first. The keel on the V21 will need 5 feet of water, I was thinking this will cause me more problems than the rudder. I have not sailed this boat as of yet, still making repair and it is a bit cold right now in the Midwest. I have read in Venture literature that the V21 will self right only if the keel is locked into position. Initially I had planed to sail with the keel unlocked. In the event of a blow over I can imagine that the keel could come up and possible turtle the boat. I am not a excessively worrysome person but I do want to know what the potential problems are so I can act prudently.
how do I make a two piece rudder for a V21?
- Thread starter troutman
- Start date
Chief,
there is probably no need for serious concern over how your folding rudder performs compared to how mine does, or that there is any real need to change it, but when starting the task of modifying a rudder into a folding rudder, there are simple steps than can be thought out, planned and done (or omitted) in the modification process that makes the mod easier, less complex, and still have a perfectly working and simple to operate device as the outcome...
my 25 has a folding fiberglass rudder, foam core... it floats also.
im sure it does not NEED to float, but if it does its a good trait when needed...
as for the holding line, there is a manufacture that uses a gas strut and mounting hardware as the hold down/cam-over spring that operates EXACTLY on the same principal as the cheap, stretchy double braid line.... this works great on non floating rudders to lift the rudder when it folds back., but if your rudder is already a floatie, go with it!
centerline: My consternation stems from not having confidence in the rudder staying down. It has walked back enough to hit my prop twice so far. I think it would be better if it did not float. It is also on a wing keel and I question the need for a 2 piece rudder. Chief
a line to hold it down and a "jam cleat"... it will do the job... for your boat and needs a folding rudder is probably not necessary at all... a LOT of boats dont have one and dont miss it, but a boat with a retractable keel, like troutmans, is a perfect candidate for one.
also when the rudder folds back even a couple of inches, it will put a lot more stress on the rudder blade and the helmsman, as it disrupts the balance of it... it has to be fully down to maintain the ease in steering...
centerline: I agree with your comments. My Clipper Marine 26' had a large fixed rudder and had a retractable keel. Normally that would be bad but I modified it to pop the rudder off the transom if it grounded. It had a rudder safety line attached as well so the rudder could be readily retrieved.
Chief
Chief
when I had my 21, I pushed it hard in winds that i shouldnt of been out in, and in ways that should have broke something....
there was a method to my actions and I didnt care if the boat sank or if it broke. i wasnt trying to preserve anything, but I was trying to gain knowledge of how a sailboat worked in the wind and why it rounded up, and does it really float on its side without sinking, and how far over can you sail it, heeled on its side and maintain steerage and headway....
I am a lifetime powerboat owner and always pushed them towards the upper limits on the ocean and elsewhere. I have worked on fishing boats and crab boats and sometimes just going out on the sea and running the boat gently, is pushing it towards the limits of what it should do....
so my interest in sailboats came at a time when i had very little cares about anything, but had time on my hands (divorce).... and if the boat sank it was no big deal cuz I know people who could help me retrieve it, or i could just buy another one... it didnt matter how it went down, but I was learning sailing the same way I learned everything else, by going there and doing that. by finding out what doesnt work and what does.(my dad never gave me instructions, he just gave me the ax and told me to get it done)
I refined the knowledge i gained by reading books and asking questions here on this site (a sincere thank you to everyone)... and, although others may do better with a refined and organized sailing class, i dont and will never regret the fun, excitement, dangers, or experiences I went thru, doing it as I did....
so I feel I am qualified to tell you about the macgregor 21....
i can pretty safely say this with a 99% accuracy... the keel being locked down or not, will never be an issue on a lake where the waves never get over 2ft .... or the winds never get over 15mph.. but, as a mariner, (laker, river pig, or whatever term you want to use) you have to figure in the "what if" factor... because that is what will save your butt, if you take steps to prevent the "what if" event...
if the boat is tuned right, it will round up before being knocked down, although it can broach with a good tail wind.... a knock down is where the wind overpowers the boat and lays it far enough over so the wind spills over the sail, the boat usually turns, (as now the sail is more like a big fan blade) and as soon as the wind looses all of its grip on the sail, the keel will allow the boat to return to a standing position with its sail tailed out and flapping...
the boat WILL ONLY RIGHT ITSELF IF THE KEEL IS FULLY EXTENDED.... if the keel should retract, you better expect it to go turtle.... cuz it will.
with the keel extended, you can expect it to pop back up even in a broach where the cockpit scoops itself full of water...
only the lockdown bolt can insure the keel will remain extended.
a broach is a knockdown by wind or waves when sailing downwind. (a following sea) these are more dangerous. your bow can be pushed under a wave so you take one over the bow, a wave can lift the back of the boat at the same time making matters worse... it can escalate from there as the boat gets heavier with all the water it has swallowed in the open hatchway.....
broaches just arent as much fun, in my experience, so avoid them if you can, but be prepared just in case....
in normal sailing, as the boat heels, and the friction of the keel hanging sideways in the trunk will keep it extended below its pivot point, but when you broach, the boat is usually pushed past the horizontal plane, which exposes the weight of the keel to forces above its pivot point, and it is going to come slamming closed like a jackknife.
this action can cause damage itself, and if the boat gets miraculously pushed back onto its feet by a wave, the keel is going to slam open in the same manner that it closed in...
so no matter what I or others say, or how we say it, its a matter of simple physics and you will draw you own conclusions.
running aground with a swing keeler, is not an issue, or even an aggravation, its just a small inconvenience. but if you had a fixed keel its a completely different and more serious matter, but still not ALWAYS an emergency on a lake bottom... (a rocky outcrop is bad all the time)
breaking a rudder on a stump on the lake bottom while swinging on the hook is an aggravation that can be avoided if you have a folding rudder. (the keel may not ground, but the rudder can still catch a stump)...
but dont over think it or worry about it... as long as you are aware of the things to watch out for you will be fine.. its almost always those who dont know, dont care, or have their minds elsewhere that experience problems such as we are talking about here.
Mr Centerline has a good take.
If you are going to make your rudder into a kick up; try and design it so that when you raise it it can come completely (or nearly so) out of the water. If not it kicks up with the lower blade at 90* to the head board. The rudder is vulnerable in this position. The boat steers badly and a lot of force is placed on the headstock/ tiller point.
If you are in the situation of having to back up under outboard motor power with the blade at 90* all kinds of fun things can happen. Water force can easily slam that rudder blade hard over causing an unhappy flirtation with the outboard prop and worse having the tiller pin someone against the push-pit. Things break and unpleasant words are uttered. Think docking in shallow water in wind and waves - perhaps in the dark. Adventure.
We usually sail in shallow lakes so don't lock anything down; rudder or keel.
Being out in big wind have never felt a fear of turning turtle. The boat rounds up.
In big deep water both are locked down
We use a strong bungee cord set up to keep our rudder blade full down. When it kicks up from grounding we have a pvc rod to shove it back down. I never had any luck with rope up/down-hauls with this thing. Up haul underway -fine but down-haul good luck getting the rudder fully down. Sails like crap if the rudder is not ALL the way down.
Has the phenomena of the middle aged man with a single wet pant leg caused by hanging astern resetting a rudder blade been officially named yet?
If you are going to make your rudder into a kick up; try and design it so that when you raise it it can come completely (or nearly so) out of the water. If not it kicks up with the lower blade at 90* to the head board. The rudder is vulnerable in this position. The boat steers badly and a lot of force is placed on the headstock/ tiller point.
If you are in the situation of having to back up under outboard motor power with the blade at 90* all kinds of fun things can happen. Water force can easily slam that rudder blade hard over causing an unhappy flirtation with the outboard prop and worse having the tiller pin someone against the push-pit. Things break and unpleasant words are uttered. Think docking in shallow water in wind and waves - perhaps in the dark. Adventure.
We usually sail in shallow lakes so don't lock anything down; rudder or keel.
Being out in big wind have never felt a fear of turning turtle. The boat rounds up.
In big deep water both are locked down
We use a strong bungee cord set up to keep our rudder blade full down. When it kicks up from grounding we have a pvc rod to shove it back down. I never had any luck with rope up/down-hauls with this thing. Up haul underway -fine but down-haul good luck getting the rudder fully down. Sails like crap if the rudder is not ALL the way down.
Has the phenomena of the middle aged man with a single wet pant leg caused by hanging astern resetting a rudder blade been officially named yet?