How can people continue working during a “lock down”?

[jssailem]

John, you raise sound questions that In my experience can not be answered.

For 35 years I figured out a way to conduct a logistics business predominantly from home. For less than a roughly 8 months of that time I was physically in front of customers or clients. Most of the interaction was on the phone, via fax and eventually email, and in frequent web based group discussions (i.e Skype/facetime/zoom like resources). While this methodology once developed became second nature, it was not easy for most of my clients/customers to comprehend. Their interaction with their employees or business associates was based on face to face and physical monitoring of performance.

This Pandemic will be a force to cause a paradigm shift in the way we interact. It has been happening a little at a time over the past 7-10 years. Think Facebook friends. YouTube entrepreneurs. These innovations have encouraged a culture of "living in the ether" not a physical relationship a Facebook friend. YouTubers who make you feel you are part of their adventure in such a profound way that you send them money to keep them doing the thing that you enjoy them doing. We sit for hours watching someone sail their boat to magical places, have and raise babies on their boat, suggest we feel connected to them and that they are eternally grateful that we will send them money.

We have not yet been motivated to have the mechanic who fixes our tires, not greet us at the garage door, show us to the waiting area, tell us how much it will cost for those big new tires on our car. Could this be done remotely? Perhaps. But have we been ready to accept it? Are we ready now? Is the infrastructure in place to provide it.

It takes a disruptive event for us not to want to deal face to face. It will take innovation for businesses to develop ways for this to happen. Will it really be better to take your phone and order tires from your favorite shop. will you pay the cost for them to pick up your car load the tires on the car and return it, charging you a service charge for pick up and delivery. All the while you stay safely in your home "sheltered in place".

Why do we need to go to a grocery store? Because delivery service has been spotty at best. Will they really pick out the ripe oranges? But now has the government scared you enough for you to try and get your vegetables delivered while you "shelter in place" .

I have said it, things have changed... and like Dorothy said in the "Wizard of Oz"

'Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.'​

The trick for us all to discover is how are we going to react or interact with this new world.

 

[Jim26m]

Bought tires yesterday. Picked them out on line, the day before, chose options on line. Made appointment to have them installed nearby. Unfortunately, I found out later, the home office is in New York. I never received my confirmation email, but printed my on line invoice and went to the shop at 0900 for my appointment. What else have I got to do? Sign on door says, "please don't get within 6 feet of our technicians, and please do not wait in our customer waiting area." So, I walked to the first bay door and said, "I have a 0900 appointment for tires, what do I need to do?" The manager invited me into the desk at a distance; found me in the system; and told me that the New York office was having issues. My tires had not been delivered, but would be there by noon. He made a 1400 appointment for me.

Back at 1400, short crew, at least one total rookie, maybe two, of the four techs. Experienced guy did the tire changing. Manager and rookie did the removal/reinstall. Rookies didn't know how to release the safety locks on the lift, and dropped one side of my truck well below the other before the manager rescued the operation.

Took 2 hours, 15 mins to get 4 tires. I was never closer than 6 ft to anyone; waited outside in the pollen.

But, in the middle of whatever this is, I was glad to get them. I had two that weren't round, or safe, anymore.

We order our groceries delivered and dropped on our front walk. Full of substitutions, some questionable choices, but we are glad not to have to go ourselves and tip well. They are instituting occupancy limits on all remaining open businesses. You will have to wait outside at 6 ft marked intervals when the limit is reached.

I did a lot of online, email, video conference, work for remote clients. Got really good at it. I am curious whether this will cause a permanent paradigm shift or not, but we are certainly seeing a temporary one. No-touch food delivery, church on live stream, etc.

I'm hoping businesses can figure out how to safely stay up and running for the duration of this pandemic response. I hope at least some of the businesses, forced to close, will be able to re-open if they have an adequate operating plan to keep people safe. My family is fine with this, but there are a lot of folks that will be in dire straits if unemployment goes through the roof.

If there's going to be a big paradigm shift, I hope it gets to shifting soon...

 

[rgranger]

John, you raise sound questions that In my experience can not be answered.

For 35 years I figured out a way to conduct a logistics business predominantly from home. For less than a roughly 8 months of that time I was physically in front of customers or clients. Most of the interaction was on the phone, via fax and eventually email, and in frequent web based group discussions (i.e Skype/facetime/zoom like resources). While this methodology once developed became second nature, it was not easy for most of my clients/customers to comprehend. Their interaction with their employees or business associates was based on face to face and physical monitoring of performance.

This Pandemic will be a force to cause a paradigm shift in the way we interact. It has been happening a little at a time over the past 7-10 years. Think Facebook friends. YouTube entrepreneurs. These innovations have encouraged a culture of "living in the ether" not a physical relationship a Facebook friend. YouTubers who make you feel you are part of their adventure in such a profound way that you send them money to keep them doing the thing that you enjoy them doing. We sit for hours watching someone sail their boat to magical places, have and raise babies on their boat, suggest we feel connected to them and that they are eternally grateful that we will send them money.

We have not yet been motivated to have the mechanic who fixes our tires, not greet us at the garage door, show us to the waiting area, tell us how much it will cost for those big new tires on our car. Could this be done remotely? Perhaps. But have we been ready to accept it? Are we ready now? Is the infrastructure in place to provide it.

It takes a disruptive event for us not to want to deal face to face. It will take innovation for businesses to develop ways for this to happen. Will it really be better to take your phone and order tires from your favorite shop. will you pay the cost for them to pick up your car load the tires on the car and return it, charging you a service charge for pick up and delivery. All the while you stay safely in your home "sheltered in place".

Why do we need to go to a grocery store? Because delivery service has been spotty at best. Will they really pick out the ripe oranges? But now has the government scared you enough for you to try and get your vegetables delivered while you "shelter in place" .

I have said it, things have changed... and like Dorothy said in the "Wizard of Oz"

'Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.'​

The trick for us all to discover is how are we going to react or interact with this new world.

Very well spoken! I've been saying similar things to my colleagues. We have Zoom meetings several times a day and it seems to be working fine. Occasionally, someone will say something like "...well when things get back to normal..." and I ask, "What do you think that will look like?".

 

[dlochner]

This won't be the last pandemic unless the world comes to an end. Therefore, if procedures can be figured out on this one we'll be that much further ahead the next time. For example, all these "Refund Checks" (if that's what they're called) that are being sent out, they used ideas from the last time something like that was done. Frankly, I don't remember that time (my wife does the taxes) but that's what I read.
Safe and "Fuzz": There is probably no way to be totally "safe" in a work/executive order, so other than that, it's a continuum. Even right now with the edicts to "isolate" and "stay at home" "... except for ...." , there is fuzz. Speaking of fuzz, are Easter eggs an "essential" like food? If the hard-boiled ones are, what about the chocolate ones? This was a real life situation where someone got fined so I'm not making this up.

For "solid guidelines", or at least as close to "solid" as one can get, starting with I call a Guide Specification for a general activity, then adjusting the spec for a specific activity, then have it reviewed and approved by a competent health official, so this would be one way to go. Then, of course, there is inspection to ensure the agreement is followed.
[for info, in A-E work, Guide Specifications are a general spec, not written for a particular job.. The purpose is to help speed up and make the specification process easier. The designer tweaks the spec, like adding, subtracting, or changing the wording, to fit a particular project and the specification becomes a part of the contract, or agreement.]

The thought is that a set of Guide Specs can be written for various activities (check-out at a store, tire shop installing tires, backhoe operation for trenching, etc.) to cover the prevention of virus transmission. The store owner, contractor, or business person, would then have to edit the Guide Spec to fit the work. The spec would cover separation of people, personal protective equipment (PPE), cleanliness, material requirements for sanitizers or PPE clothing, and all those things one must do for prevention.

This concept would be for those who don't fit the "essential" category and everyone who do not have an approved COVID safety plan would have to self-isolate. So there would be three groups: (1) Essential workers, (2) COVID Compliant workers or workplaces, and, (3) none-of-the-above, ergo, Self-isolating people.

Question: This concept would be an idea to help some people, workers, or businesses (particularly small businesses) to stay operational. Is this too much for, say, a typical County Commissioner to comprehend?

Question: If not this, then What else would be needed to help get people back to work?
The "None of the Above" option is where only the "essential" people work and everyone else stays isolated at home.

John, your questions and concerns are a pretty normal human reaction to uncertainty and threat. What ever our own tolerance for ambiguity is, that tolerance decreases in times of threat and uncertainty. And so we are here today.

The pandemic is a threat to our health and well being, however, for the vast majority of us Covid-19 does not appear to be deadly. I believe a much more serious threat are impulsive, irrational, and irresponsible actions that jeopardize not just our health but our social structures. For example, in Hungary, Prime Minister Orban has been granted unlimited power to rule by decree. Hungary is not the only example. This kind of response to serious illness threatens individual liberty and democratic processes. Sometimes these actions are taken to gain power and control at other times, they are poorly conceived responses to irresponsible behavior by a few. Either way, they erode our liberties and democratic values.

Over the course of my working career, I spent many days working with school administrators, teachers, and students on complying with school rules and behaviors. In that time I learned much about what works and what doesn't. What doesn't work are long lists of prohibitions with draconian consequences. What does work, is bringing people together to work toward a common goal with a shared set of values. While phrases such as Zero Tolerance and Lockdown may make us feel safe, they in fact endanger us. They generate anger and resentment and increase the likelihood the rules will be circumvented, and they always will be.

This phenomena, finding loopholes and avoiding rules, is not unique to middle school students, we have armies of tax accountants and lawyers who do exactly that, look for ways to get around laws. In Kalapana, Hawaii there is an outdoor marketplace and bar, Uncle Robert's Awa Bar and Outdoor Market. There are 6 rules:

No Fighting
No Outside Dogs
No Sitting on Tables
No Drug Use or Sales
Respect Each Other
Respect the Aina (land)

That pretty much sums it up. Simple, clear, effective. They have very few problems with customers and visitors.

As sailors and boaters we are now being confronted with draconian measures because of a handful of bad actors. Maryland has just banned all recreational boating, well sort of. There are of course exceptions, fishing for sustenance is allowed, canoeing and kayaking is allowed, charter fishing is allowed if there are fewer than 10 people on board. The prohibition worded in this manner will not stop the spread of the virus. After ranting to my wife about what a stupid and unenforceable rule this was, I realized a quick and easy way to get around it, buy a fishing license, buy a cheap rod and reel and a hook, stick the hook in the water and "troll" under sail. We're not recreational boating, we're fishing for sustenance using wind power instead of using a polluting gas engine.

A much more sensible and enforceable response to bad boaters is to ban rafting up and partying and encourage social distancing even on the water.

When individuals, businesses, and schools violate principles that keep us safe, then they should be dealt with directly, rather than getting out a bigger hammer to restrict the rest of us who are trying to continue our lives while protecting ourselves and others in responsible and sensible ways.

Stepping off my soapbox now....

 

[Ward H]

Well said Dave

 

[DRhoads]

In Alabama they closed all non-essential stores. Liquor stores, gun and ammo stores and marinas are considered essential.....

Should I cry or laugh

LAUGH!!!!!!!
there is enough to cry about.

 

[jssailem]

Nicely observed from your Soapy Box.... Thanks Dave.

 

[dlochner]

This article came out in today's NY Times. According to the article it is the amount of exposure to COVID-19 virus that determines the severity of the disease. This casts a new light on how we should interact and the risks we take in doing so.

An important implication of the article is PPE is vitally necessary for those in direct contact with ill patients and not as important for rest of who may have only light or casual contact. Actually, picking up a couple of viruses cells might be a good thing as our bodies will build an antibody to the virus. It is when the amount of virus enters our body overwhelms our ability to create the antibody that we become ill.

Thus, when I look at my behavior at the grocery store or marina (about the only 2 places I go), I feel pretty safe. At the grocery store, I walk quickly through the aisles, maintaining a good distance from others, I don't dwell over a product, I pick it from the shelf and move on spending as little time as possible in the store. Under these conditions, it is unlikely that I will come in close contact with any one with the virus and even less likely I will be exposed to a sufficient number of the virus to be ill.

Opinion | These Coronavirus Exposures Might Be the Most Dangerous (Published 2020)

As with any other poison, viruses are usually deadlier in larger amounts.

www.nytimes.com

 

[JamesG161]

Here is big list of approved disinfectants. We are using Lysol in our laundromat to wash all clothes.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2020-03/documents/sars-cov-2-list_03-03-2020.pdf

Of course Clorox.
Jim...

 

[JamesG161]

a good thing as our bodies will build an antibody to the virus.

I have never had any type of Flu in my life.

One reason is my Grandmother was the only person in 5 house family members [35 in all] who did NOT get sick in the
Spanish Flu Pandemic of 1918. [Antibodies?]

During this self sheltering time, I will write what she told me about that time. Amazing story.
I will tell you that a lot of deaths were from lack of care.

Simple Aspirin was barely available.
The Doctors and nurses died quickly.

The morgue was sheets wrapped around bodies and put along the railroad tracks.
Why? Temperature was -20°F for 2 straight weeks. Small town Oklahoma.

By the way.. A simple scarf covering your face will reduce inhaling a virus.

Stay safe...
Jim...

 

[Daveinet]

I have to say, our company transitioned to working remotely with exceptional smoothness. A week before our state went on lock down, we already implemented a work from home strategy. This enabled us to get the bugs out of the system, make sure we got what we needed moved to our house. We are considered an essential business, as we supply products used for manufacturing plastics. I really have to commend the leadership for creating strategies to keep everyone healthy well before anyone else was taking it very seriously.
Interestingly I had to go into work last week to pick up a piece of gear. I was thinking I would walk down an empty hallway to my empty office without impacting anyone. Instead, when I got to the parking lot I called to confirm it was ready. My boss says stay in your car, you are not allowed in the building. I opened the trunk, he came out and set it in the trunk. I closed the lid and left. When I got home, I wiped the gear down before going into the house.
Out IT department setup a Teams group called around the water cooler. This is intended to be just loose conversation to keep everyone connected and not go insane. Everyone is posting photos of their home office with their 4 footed interns. One girl has been posting photos of here 1 year old daughter with big smiles. That kid is in heaven. She has no idea what is going on. All she knows is that her mom is around and taking care of her. Oh to be a kid again.

 

[kappykaplan]

home office with their 4 footed interns

They are really helpful! I have three of 'em (cats) and they are getting very spoiled with me being home all the time.

 

[Davidasailor26]

Everyone is posting photos of their home office with their 4 footed interns.

They are really helpful! I have three of 'em (cats) and they are getting very spoiled with me being home all the time.

I was very confused at the idea of 4’ tall cats, before I put that together.

 

[Will Gilmore]

Google "normalized deviance"
That will be part of the answer.
The other part is time.
Immediate effective response is required for control. Taking the time to work out a case-by-case program by people who have little or no training and relying in a world of clear thinking, aware and informed populations, just isn't going to yield strong results. History should prove that.

-Will (Dragonfly)

 

[kappykaplan]

I was very confused at the idea of 4’ tall cats, before I put that together.

I guess if the OP had used "4-footed", it might have become clearer sooner.

 

[MikeHoncho]

This article came out in today's NY Times. According to the article it is the amount of exposure to COVID-19 virus that determines the severity of the disease. This casts a new light on how we should interact and the risks we take in doing so.

An important implication of the article is PPE is vitally necessary for those in direct contact with ill patients and not as important for rest of who may have only light or casual contact. Actually, picking up a couple of viruses cells might be a good thing as our bodies will build an antibody to the virus. It is when the amount of virus enters our body overwhelms our ability to create the antibody that we become ill.

Thus, when I look at my behavior at the grocery store or marina (about the only 2 places I go), I feel pretty safe. At the grocery store, I walk quickly through the aisles, maintaining a good distance from others, I don't dwell over a product, I pick it from the shelf and move on spending as little time as possible in the store. Under these conditions, it is unlikely that I will come in close contact with any one with the virus and even less likely I will be exposed to a sufficient number of the virus to be ill.

Opinion | These Coronavirus Exposures Might Be the Most Dangerous (Published 2020)

As with any other poison, viruses are usually deadlier in larger amounts.

www.nytimes.com

Your failing to consider your potential spread while not "getting it". We just learned last week how long it lives on surfaces. A couple weeks before this was released, we were told it died on the drying of the mucous it was in. This was included in the direction to reuse our N95s as long as they dry out.
My point? Your assuming alot that has direct effects on others. Now, am I curled up in the corner of my house or bathing in sanitizer? No, went to my boat yesterday and worked on it all day but I cleaned my hands, keys, cellphone and anything else I could cross contaminate to keep my car clean. I'm assuming your idea of "getting a little of it would be good" is a little tongue and cheek but it is utterly incorrect given all of the unknowns at this time. Sorry, I'll step off my soapbox now.

 

[dlochner]

Your failing to consider your potential spread while not "getting it". We just learned last week how long it lives on surfaces. A couple weeks before this was released, we were told it died on the drying of the mucous it was in. This was included in the direction to reuse our N95s as long as they dry out.
My point? Your assuming alot that has direct effects on others. Now, am I curled up in the corner of my house or bathing in sanitizer? No, went to my boat yesterday and worked on it all day but I cleaned my hands, keys, cellphone and anything else I could cross contaminate to keep my car clean. I'm assuming your idea of "getting a little of it would be good" is a little tongue and cheek but it is utterly incorrect given all of the unknowns at this time. Sorry, I'll step off my soapbox now.

I've been known to stand on a soap box from time to time, so I seldom object to sharing that soapbox.

We humans have a tendency to quickly go to the worst case scenarios when faced with adversity. I freely admit that I push back against that tendency for a lot of reasons and I try to do so with reason and reasonably accurate information. What works for me in my area may not be reasonable for other areas, like large metro areas, NY, Chicago, Miami, New Orleans and others.

I live in a county of about 470,000 people. As of this afternoon, 29 people were hospitalized with C-19 and 301 patients have tested positive for C-19. Less than 1/10th of 1% of the people in my county have tested positive and of those, only about 1% have been hospitalized, with about 4 or 5 people in ICU. Those aren't good numbers if you are one of the afflicted, but for the rest of us here, the odds of being in close contact with someone who has the virus are pretty slim. And given the research on other viruses, coming in contact with someone who is infected and shedding enough virus that I can become seriously infected with that virus is even slimmer.

Now that does not mean, in any respect that I should abandon the recommended precautions of social distancing, hand washing and other precautions, it does mean that I should keep my concerns about the virus in perspective. What the NYT article does say, and I agree with it, is lots of people are going to have very mild, asymptomatic infections which produce immunity. Unlike bacteria, viruses can not replicate outside of a host. If more people have mild infections and develop antibodies, then there are fewer potential hosts and the virus becomes less able to reproduce. That's what vaccines do, they infect a person with a benign form of a virus which allows the body to produce antibodies thus protecting the individual from a more serious and threatening infection.

There are some who advocate allowing the virus to run its course to produce herd immunity, i.e., the virus has a hard time finding a host and subsequently dies out. Sweden and Holland are using this approach, let healthy people get sick to develop immunity across the country.

At this point, I am far more concerned with irrational and excessive political responses to the viral threat. Those responses have the potential to significantly and adversely affect our culture and society. In Hungary, a democratic country, the Prime Minister asked for and was granted an unrestricted right to rule by decree. That is the kind of response that I worry about, a disproportionate response to what is not an existential crisis, a response that attacks our basic freedoms and liberties. It is a human characteristic to give up hard won liberties in the face of a threat, even a cursory look at recent history can identify multiple instances where that has held true.

So, yes we need to behave in ways that mitigate the viral threat, but we need to do so while understanding the real nature of the threat and how to contain it. We need to rely on science, not myth, on rational thought and assessment not fear. That would be my main point and one that I hope others consider.

And yes, I've been known to make some tongue-in-cheek comments, like I did to a physician friend a few weeks ago when I advocated getting the virus early before the hospitals were overwhelmed and so I could be immune from future C-19 infections. He understood the humor.
I now cede my time on the soap box to other well informed participants.

 

[TimFromLI]

How about a boat yard? My boat is in the yard behind 30 other boats and the yard is shut down. No painting, waxing, mechanical work, fiberglass. I really can't see the danger of one guy working by himself.

 

[John Nantz]

... (i.e Skype/facetime/zoom like resources). While this methodology once developed became second nature, it was not easy for most of my clients/customers to comprehend. Their interaction with their employees or business associates was based on face to face and physical monitoring of performance.

Communication, comprehension and monitoring performance: Starbucks, the coffee company, was in the news yesterday. Starbucks was handing out facemarks to customers but the customers thought is was a one-time-use. Headquarters Management intended for the mask to be re-used. The masks were available and the incoming customers were just reaching into the open mask container to get one. As it turned out, that wasn't the way it was supposed to work but somewhere along the line the store manager and employees didn't get the message.
Definitely a communication, comprehension, and performance monitoring problem.
Unfortunately, what was supposed to be good PR turned out being widely reported. So any change in modus operandi, especially such as this health & safety issue, needs to be thoroughly understood by everybody responsible. And, of course, follow-up monitoring to ensure compliance.

This Pandemic will be a force to cause a paradigm shift in the way we interact. It has been happening a little at a time over the past 7-10 years. ....
It takes a disruptive event for us not to want to deal face to face. It will take innovation for businesses to develop ways for this to happen.

When OSHA came along it took time to get success and operational success. It has had tweaking over the years but it has contributed to a lot of safety in the workplace. When I started working in construction and also in manufacturing it didn't exist and I wish it had.
This pandemic won't be the last one so that's why good procedures should be captured now. Once it is over we'll be back to work and the next one that comes along we'll have to go through it the same way "because that' the way we always done it". ("Done" instead of "did" chosen on purpose. We aren't very smart.).

I have said it, things have changed... and like Dorothy said in the "Wizard of Oz"
'Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.'
The trick for us all to discover is how are we going to react or interact with this new world.

The big question: What can we do now to change the system so we're more prepared for the next pandemic?
I want to make suggestions to the County Council and perhaps the Governor.

By the way, the Governor spoke this afternoon and NO construction is (or has been) allowed except for emergency construction. Never mind if it is only one person or maybe more no matter how far apart they are separated. Won't cost the county or state anything bit it'll cost others big-time.

Just finished a new ADA commercial restroom recently and there was only 1 AutoCad guy (working at home), 1 drywall guy, 1 painter, 1 floor covering installer, 1 electrician, 2 plumbers who also did the framing (brothers living in the same house), [Edit: all worked separately, except for the brothers, on separate days because of Inspection requirements.] and me, once in a while seeing how things are going but didn't have to be there, or be close. Under the new edict this wouldn't be allowed. Also, the City Inspector came by when there wasn't anyone there. So, construction could be SAFELY done.

Epilog: The new tenant lost the lease on their old building and moved into this one as soon as the restroom was approved for occupancy. With the governors edict this wouldn't have been possible, and, there would have been a legal domino mess. Guess the lawyers would have profited, the State, County, and City wouldn't have lost a penny, but everybody else would have really lost.

 

[John Nantz]

Bought tires yesterday. Picked them out on line, the day before, chose options on line. Made appointment to have them installed nearby. Unfortunately, I found out later, the home office is in New York. I never received my confirmation email, but printed my on line invoice and went to the shop at 0900 for my appointment. What else have I got to do? Sign on door says, "please don't get within 6 feet of our technicians, and please do not wait in our customer waiting area." So, I walked to the first bay door and said, "I have a 0900 appointment for tires, what do I need to do?" The manager invited me into the desk at a distance; found me in the system; and told me that the New York office was having issues. My tires had not been delivered, but would be there by noon. He made a 1400 appointment for me......
Took 2 hours, 15 mins to get 4 tires. I was never closer than 6 ft to anyone; waited outside in the pollen.

But, in the middle of whatever this is, I was glad to get them. I had two that weren't round, or safe, anymore.

The good news is, you were helping them to get the bugs out of the new system.
Good to hear you got 'em.
Back in the "olden days" as our daughter calls 'em, yea, 16 y.o. teenager, running the '49 Ford on recaps, I knew it was getting to be time to get new (recap) tires when the cords started showing. Miss judged once, though.

I'm hoping businesses can figure out how to safely stay up and running for the duration of this pandemic response. I hope at least some of the businesses, forced to close, will be able to re-open if they have an adequate operating plan to keep people safe.

If there's going to be a big paradigm shift, I hope it gets to shifting soon...

Me too.
Essentially every person who cannot work because the government has prohibited them working, will not only cost them livelihood but to some degree, will cost everyone else, too. Higher taxes because the governments have to make up for the shortfall in tax income, more expensive items due to supply and demand, legal expenses, more health issues (psychiatric care because of stress), differed maintenance which has been made worse, etc.

As the virus takes its toll it will be difficult for politicians to accept that there are cases where people can work without spreading the disease. I'm wondering how long it will take before the same politicians start crying they need more money?